Attempted murder in Croydon

Anya They will probably be headline readers who suck up hate headlines. They fuel their predisposition to be fearful of/hate people not like them. They may or may not be gormless..I suspect the ringleaders will be quite bright... but they will be followed by some less able/poorly educated. That tends to be how gangs work. They are not interested in Brexit beyond the fact they believe it supports their extreme nationalism.

..the attackers I mean.

Of course it was a racist attack

But do you think these gormless gang members have any clue and the Brexit arguement beyond 'get rid of asylum seekers'? And many of them were black!!

It has all the hallmarks of a racist attack. If he had been a white guy from Croydon do you think they would have stopped to ask "Where are u from" ? He looked foreign
... "we" don't like foreigners especially asylum seekers.They take our jobs, mess up our NHS, are different etc etc...so let's have him.
That is a racist attack!

I'm well aware of the difference between excusing and explaining and I stand by what I wrote.

It has been reported that the young Kurd was attacked because he said that he was an asylum seeker.

Possibly drink was a factor, but so was hysterical national rhetoric which reinforced immigration as a threat and demonised asylum seekers.

The cases will now be sub judice, so maybe the trials will present new evidence.

Cunco does not seem to me to be excusing anything at all, explaining is not the same as excusing.Drink is always a factor but there will be others, which no doubt will come to light in due course.

But you are making excuses Cunco, but don't seem to be able to see it.

You are also excusing the media, which deliberately creates this atmosphere and then holds its hands up and says "It's not us, guv."

The two most important factors in the Brexit Leave vote were so-called sovereignty and immigration.You can't ignore facts!

I have already stated that Brexit wasn't the cause, but I wouldn't mind betting that the toxic atmosphere surrounding immigration was a factor in some people's decision to vote Leave.

Ooops!

www.independent.co.uk/voices/katie-hopkins-when-is-enough-enough-10186490.html

Daphne: I am not making excuses for vile behaviour. Vile behaviour is primarily the responsibility of the individual whatever their background or what they read in the newspapers.

I do think background and the past behaviour of these people may be relevant to understanding what happened. This may not be known fully until after any trial has taken place. I also this drink may have been an influence.

I suspect any 'toxic atmosphere' would be dissipated more quickly if Brexit was recognised as not racist, stupid or not driven entirely by immigration.

Ooops!

www.independent.co.uk/voices/katie-hopkins-when-is-enough-enough-10186490.html

Did you post the right link there, dd?

The backgrounds aren't unknown. Some of those who have been charged still have their Facebook profiles online (although I expect they'll delete them) and people are circulating them on social media. The ones I've seen appear to be very "normal" - family photos, animals, jobs, etc. If anything I find it more frightening that these are probably "normal" young adults. For all I know, their grandparents might be on GN. I really don't want this kind of behaviour or attitude to be the new normal!

Somebody posted that Croydon is full of gangs, as though that excused what happened. I don't know Croydon at all, so I checked the crime statistics. Admittedly it's higher than average, but it's not unique. There are plenty of places in the UK which have higher crime rates, so maybe this kind of thing is going to be the new normal.

There is no excuse, whatever their background.

I accept that Brexit didn't cause the attack, although I still feel that the hysteria surrounding and hatred directed towards asylum seekers has created a toxic atmosphere.

I expect you remember the vile sentiments expressed by Katie Hopkins:

www.dezeen.com/2017/02/14/dezeen-launches-unofficial-brexit-passport-design-competition-1000-pound-prize/

Even David Cameron called them a "swarm".

They weren't the only ones. Looking at Twitter yesterday, there are plenty who still think like that.

Everyone has condemned this crime. We agree that these people were thugs when they committed the crime. Violent behaviour is not the province only of the extreme Right of politics but I agree with Daphne that this attack was probably not 'political'.

Whether or not Brexit was an influence is unknown. Indeed, the motives and backgrounds of the people who have been arrested are unknown. For instance, do they have a record of violent behaviour? It remains to be seen whether drink was a significant influence. Late night violence after alcohol has been taken is hardly new or, sadly, rare.

When we know, we will be in a better position to judge whether the Brexit campaign or any reporting had a significant influence on these people. I suspect that it was not but I will await more information before making up my mind.

It's very bad etiquette to point out spelling mistakes aitch but to put your mind at rest I do know the difference between their, there and they're (and your and you're) so it was doubtless a typo if I did. I really CBA to check as I suspect you're (!) just trying to score points.

I agree with you Penstemmon. I doubt if these thugs are Fascists and they possibly didn't even consider themselves racist. It's the fact that this sort of racism becomes validated and almost normalised which I find so appalling.

I don't suppose they were the brightest of human beings (incidentally their faces and names were in yesterday's papers) and I think it would be naive to think they weren't influenced by the reports of the Calais immigrants' being frauds or any of the other anti-immigrant reporting over the last few years.

The Daily Mail reported the attack and described how "appalling" it was. I found the hypocrisy difficult to stomach.

Anya, did you mean "their"?

I once heard that the bigger the crowd ( gathering around a crime/attack) the least likely anyone would help.That this was because of ingrained human behaviour , that seeing a good number of people there nobody wants to be the first to act ( differently)
But to fit in. If however only a few people were present, then somebody is more likely to take control of the situation and do something.If you think about situations like this, it would seem to explain it.Not many would happily sit back and let a young man or woman be kicked about in this manner, and those that did gather, and did nothing, may later wonder at their own behaviour.

The TVs companies have been instructed by the police not to show the faces of the thugs, bit late because they were shown on an earlier bulletin

daphnedill That's why I'm always well tooled up when I go out. Mace, flick knife, knuckle duster Your not even safe in towiefied leigh on sea now.

Appallingly there has always been racist violence by fascists and other right winger gangs. However when there is a spate of irresponsible media reporting, as happened in the run up and since the referendum, it does give these thugs validation (in their mind) for their actions. It gives rise to the worst type of nationalism.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/30/police-report-fivefold-increase-race-hate-crimes-since-brexit-result

I understand your comment Luckygirl but Penstommon is right in the way she sets out the reason behind categorising violent crime.

Police categorize all violent crime: Domestic Violence, Gang Violence etc. Hate crime is just another category when the motivation /excuse is because the perpetrators decide the race /religion of a victim is enough validation for them to act.

It is important to monitor this though how the police follow it up should not be affected!

I am always puzzled when I hear on the news that: "Police are treating this as a hate crime." What does that mean? What point does it serve? - police should be treating it as attempted murder - full stop.

Because Daphnedill they (the gleeful back me up 4ths of earlier postings) are only able to focus on their defence of Brexit and they would call night, day in the service of the Tory spin doctors and the likes of Aaron Banks and his ilk who masterminded the whole Leave vote and are about to do the same with changes in the UK political system now that 'we've got our sovereignty back'.

Excellent and terrifying interview with Banks in Sunday's Observer. The people who are trying to understand what's going on on the basis of common sense or their personal experience of having lived for a good few years are so out of touch it's deeply sad.

We are being played with, the people in charge now are those with the money to buy influence and power to pursue their own agendas regardless of the political system. Just as economics is no longer reducible to a household budget analogy, national and international politics is no longer reducible to the innocence of the ballot box or to personal anecdote. Just because you personally trot along and cast your vote or don't actually see an act of racism or think racism has always been with us doesn't make it so!

How does a thread about a racist attack get diverted to discussion about some TV programme about dancing?

By the way petra did you know that the crime rate in Southend is higher than Croydon?