Syria - what is to be done?

So how does that work with Japan?

It's not Johnson himself, it what what he was saying, which would have been the same content even if delivered by somebody else.

They didn't support him because of two things, Brexit, and having no aforementioned backbone where Russia is concerned.

The point is none of the others at the meeting supported Johnson, not a single solitary country, zilch, zero. It isn't the way to conduct foreign policy and the foreign office know it, it is a pity Johnson doesn't .

Yes, why not say what you think needs saying ( Johnson) even if you do know that some other countries will be too worried about the Russians threatening to turn off
'The tap' ( as they have done before)
Sanctions against Russia, and all countries standing united ( to even the threat to Russia of sanctions) woukd have been best, but Germany shows no backbone sometimes.

Then he didn't think it through very well before he went did he?! You don't announce such a strategy if you think it will in all probability be rejected, or perhaps he isn't listening to the experts in the foreign office!!

Well- hush my mouth.

Nothing to do with Johnson being 'an embarrassment', and all to do with Germany and other countries being scared that Russia will stop the gas pipeline!

No I think that they are so fixated on Brexit it that they are not making quality decisions on strategy for all sorts of other areas.

I also think that we will find ourselves sidelined more often once we leave Europe as we will be just speaking for us and not part of a huge club of countries.

Yes, he seems to be an embarrassment. Do you think that's what May intended?

Johnson went down like a lead balloon in his suggestion of more sanctions. He has yet to achieve anything of any significance. We seem to have been entirely ignored.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/11/donald-trump-syria-bashar-al-assad-isis

I wonder when he will decide on stance six. Actually, he might have done already since this.

This is such a complex issue with no end solution presenting itself. I'm reminded of the situation some thirty odd years ago in Beirut. At the time, it seemed equally intractable yet eventually a solution was found. Is there anything to be gleaned from that I wonder? I can't recall the details, but it seemed horrific and insoluble.

It seems democracy doesn't work for all

I've also just read, by Yuval Noah Harari, this: "Politics is a second-order chaotic system."

What he means by that is that it (the system in question) reacts to predictions about it and therefore can never be predicted accurately.

We can't predict what the Trump administration will do. As Hamid said, we'll just have to wait and see. It depends on too many unknowns.

The problem with not taking action is that that is an action with consequences itself, possibly worse consequences than taking positive action. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the more I know about what's going on over there the less I feel able to come to any view about the best way forward. But I'm still just about with Trump here though, as a simple and quick response to the use of CW.

I've just been listening to Shadi Hamid, who is senior fellow at Brookings Institute Centre for Middle East Policy. He describes himself as "on the left" (so not a Trump supporter) as regards American politics.

He talks about Trump's remarks on Syria after the US response to the chemical attack: "Obviously some of this is just rhetoric and we are going to have to wait and see what Trump actually does, but I am somewhat encouraged by some of this rhetoric".

He then says: "I do think Syria is a direct national security interest and I think one of Obama's biggest mistakes was not realising that."

I'm interpreting that to mean that aiming the Cruise missiles at the airport from which the chemical attack on civilians was launched is not seen by Shadi Hamid as "meddling" in things that will not directly affect the national security of the US. It seems he doesn't see it as meddling in things that are nothing to do with the US and Europe. Interesting.

He also talked about the (new?) phenomenon among Western liberals of not supporting democratic outcomes if the outcome is not what they wanted. It certainly does appear strange in places that talk the talk of believing in democracy as the best form of government so far. He was talking about it with reference to the toppling of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, even though they were democratically elected and of course with reference to all the protests about Trump being elected as POTUS and the protests against the Brexit vote here.

His family is Egyptian, though he and his parents are Americans.

Yes, I know how complicated it all is.
Which is why we should never meddle but it's far too late now to say that now

jalima the problem doesn't stop there though. So IS and Al Qaeda are defeated say by those fighters the Americans are supporting, which at present is the most likely
scenario. These fighters are implacably against Assad and the Russians, and are the fighters who are being hammered by Assad and Russia. So America and Russia will find themselves on opposing sides.

Partition may be the answer short term, but we know never works long term, and given the volatility of the area, extremely unlikely to work.

I agree with your last paragraph Joelsnan with certain reservations because I cannot forget what happened to the Iraqui Kurds and other minority groups in some of these countries.

That may or may not be true whitewave but the truth is that thousands more will be relieved when IS is defeated there.

The issue is who back Sunni Muslims and who back Shiite Muslims and minority religions. Currently the west are supporting the larger Saudi based Sunni Muslims who spawned Al Quaeda and ISIS, this because of beneficial trade links, there is little consideration to the fact that Sunni Muslims tend to overwhelm any other religions as shown creeping through such places as Turkey and Egypt.
Russia and Iran support the Shite and minority religions of which Assad is one.
The west dislikes both Iran and Russia as they wont dance to their tune so inevitably there will be a biased view. There are millions of Syrians who back Assad against the Sunni insurgents but their voices are rarely heard, they do not want a Sunni majority knowing how repressive these regimes become, think Saudi, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia et al. where other religions are not tolerated. Syria was always a multi faith country it seems the West will be happy to see this wiped out to keep trade flowing. There are atrocities on both sides, but if you take note the news flow is very skewed towards reporting on the government atrocities, there is very little showing the other side. Note that all the Arabic nations calling for Asad's overthrow are both Sunni majority and 'friends' of the west.
If all the secondary interest countries could/would butt out the conflict would probably end sooner, but that won't happen so we will continue to be shown heart wrenching images to play on our emotions whilst not being given the full picture to understand why.
We are all goaded to call for the overthrow of Asad, but as time has told with Sadam Hussain and Iraq and Gaddafi and Libya they were keeping the lid on pressure cookers which have spewed chaos, atrocities and misery within these now failed countries. Libya, Iraq and Syria were wealthy countries with good infrastructure and well educated people...we can't seem to learn the lesson that the western way is not always the right way for certain cultures and religions.

Thinking about what to do next is the easy part. What is difficult is to come up with a strategy that produces peace and prosperity. Something not a single leader has yet achieved. That is why Obama appeared to prevaricate. He understood as do so many that action without forethought as to what next and how to get to the desired goal without a devastating loss of life. An almost impossible task in the Middle East

Just a note whilst we mourn those poor people who died at Assad hands. It would be expedient to note that 150 people lost their lives at Americas hands in Mosel last week.

Thanks CF

So too was Obama influenced by those around him bags but with very different outcomes. It's who they choose to place around them that matters, but the final call is the president's.

'Better political brains' ? All relative. I'd be happier with best political brains.

Anya, Love your name for Kim Yong thing, Fat Controller is funny and so apt.
This whole episode with USA / Syria is worrying but t least things are happening, let's hope G7 comes up with sanctions which actually hit home. There is so much we don't know but help is clearly needed for those people caught up in it all.