The art of persuasion

Sorry, Tolkien. You'd think I'd have got that right, wouldn't you?

Welshwife, having read all the usual Tolkein, as well as The Sylmarillion with him, I decided to go lighter. We read a Philippa Gregory, called Stormbringers, about the children's crusade last. It lead to reading about different philosophers, as well as finding out about whether the children's crusade was real.
What I hadn't realised was that it was the middle book of a trilogy, but the other two books were out of print. They have just come back in so I have ordered them for next term.

Pardon? I don't understand your point rosesarered. I thought Ana was asking a genuine question about teaching Hamlet. I was being polite (and I thought helpful) by answering. Why else would she have asked the question? The way literature is now taught has moved on from the days when we read some dusty and smelly old book in class and then wrote an essay, for which we were not prepared.

Please feel free to explain your accusation, because the only sniping I see is from you.

I agree with you Ww. There's nothing like seeing a Shakespeare play being performed. I was totally switched off by Shakespeare until I went on a school trip to Stratford. We're so fortunate now to have videos for those who can't see a live stage production.

Another way to reach Hamlet or Macbethe is to go to the Old Vic !! If you live near enoug of course. I was lucky enough to be able to go when I was doing English A level. Although what I actually went to see was Henry IV part one with Richard Burton playing Prince Hal - that dates me somewhat! My friend and I were able to go with the ALevel group above us who were doing the play. It was during the London smogs and we travelled home on the tube and then by the time we got off we could not see a hand in front of our faces! - had been clear when we left home - so we walked along the wall until we came to the place to turn off.
We could not get tickets for Macbeth which I gather was great with the troops rushing down the aisles onto the stage.
What novel are you reading with him*Jen *?

Thanks for the informative answers although not for the snipes from the usual suspects.

I'm sure all we got at school was an instruction to 'read it' then we'd have a bit of a discussion in class then have to write an essay or two...not very inspiring!

daphnedil did you actually read the OP before firing off jibes on here?
I think not.
More flies caught with honey than with vinegar etc.

Oooh Hamlet - Benedict Cumberbatch. Yes!!

I did wonder about the Danish connection.

Goody goody! You'll be able to give Ana some advice. She seems very keen to know about how to teach Hamlet. Personally, I think it's a bit grim.

I am going to teach him Macbeth next.
He chose Hamlet after reading synopses of both, because his other grandparents live near Helsingor and he has been to the castle. And because he is Danish, of course, but not a prince, although he is to me.
I taught Macbeth when I was a teacher, but not Hamlet.

I agree about "Macbeth". Great play! I still have a photo of my son from primary school, when they studied Macbeth and acted out some of the scenes. He was one of the witches in "When shall we three meet again? In thunder,lightning or in rain?" scene.

I used to show my students videos of Shakespeare's plays. It's the best way to elicit a response. Unfortunately one has to spoil the effect by dissecting, translating, and interpreting.

Ana my guess is that you are not the slightest bit about how to 'teach' Hamlet. It's just another dig ( so you think) at DJ. Well it's petty and boring and says far more about you then it does about her sterling efforts in home schooling her dgs.

I have taught Hamlet. You read the text to students, translating where necessary and tell them what the play is really about. Procrastination. "To be or not to be etc.. Macbeth goes down better as he can be compared to a gangster.

There are loads of resources for teaching "Hamlet". Here's one:

www.rsc.org.uk/hamlet/education

Are you planning on becoming an English teacher Ana?

How do you 'teach' someone Hamlet?

"Part of the problem seems to be people being offended by statistics. There was a good deal of analysis before and after the referendum about who would vote which way and why."

Varian that is why I asked if sunseeker could find an example - it is not on to call someone stupid of course. However, I do remember the offence being taken at the statistics.

Whoever actually said the bit about lies, damned lies and statistics didn't live in modern times when there are so many people ready to check and question the figures. Computer programmes can be used which do the leg work for you and enable far more cross-checking and deeper analysis. So I do not agree with your rejection of statistics based on a saying made in other times and I do not think would hold water for anyone involved in research in this day and age Sunseeker.

Why, I wonder, do you need to go into Mark Twain or anyone else when someone quotes what are now the accepted figures for how people voted in the referendum. Levels of education could only be a possible marker of intelligence and capability if everyone was offered the same opportunities to have that level of education. We are very aware that the older population were not. So the level of education acheived may indicate many things but lack of it does not tell you that a person is stupid - it just doesn't and, as I remember it, no one was saying that.

Can I quote and repeat what varian said as it is really important "It is a simple statistic - a correlation, an association of variables, not a statement about any individual and so it should not be taken as an insult."

That's why it's a good idea to quote the source of any statistics rather than relying on an unsourced interpretation of statistics.

Who said there are lies, damned lies and statistics? (I think it may have been Disraeli although some say it was Mark Twain). We all know that the way a question is asked can affect the answer received. One example someone gave was:

Do you think that working people should be taxed so others don't have to work

Do you think those who are unemployed should be helped

Both are basically asking the same question but the replies would probably be different.

Part of the problem seems to be people being offended by statistics. There was a good deal of analysis before and after the referendum about who would vote which way and why.

One clear fact was that less educated people were more likely to vote leave, but that does not mean that everyone who voted to leave is poorly educated or stupid.

Old people were also more likely to vote to leave but that does not mean that all leave voters are old or that all old people voted to leave.

It is a simple statistic - a correlation, an association of variables, not a statement about any individual and so it should not be taken as an insult.

I am sure there are others on here who remember the "stupid" comments - like you I am also too busy to sift through months of postings to find them.

I am out for a while now sunseeker but if you could find me one where someone is actually called stupid I would be interested to see it as that would certainly be unkind. It did lead to heated arguments though, on both sides with lots of mud being slung in all directions, if I remember rightly.

Yes I was around then but had a few months out with caring for a poorly mum but she has recovered now bar the 'normal' issues. That is why I just came back with the mark 2 bit on the end of my name - so I could be identified. I am never sure why people change names

Ok, so that we can return to the understated elegance and calm discussion of antisocial attitudes that this thread was concentrating on before I was tempted to make a small mild joke, which then attracted the usual critics much as the smell of meat does a predator, I shall post an edited version.

... and this is supposed to smooth the way Elegran? splinter, speck and eye are the words that come to mind.

Good luck

GGM2 I don't know if you were a member during and just after the EU referendum but there were posts which called people stupid, unable to understand the issues and some stating they were better informed because they had been to university. I agree we cannot tell someone's intelligence or level of education from the posts on here and I would never presume that someone is more or less intelligent or educated than I am.

Kipper - a whole herring, a small, pungent, oily fish, that has been split in butterfly fashion from tail to head along the dorsal ridge, gutted, salted or pickled, and cold-smoked over smouldering woodchips (typically oak). An oldfashioned English breakfast dish once favoured by the landladies of seaside guest houses, but now more often mentioned by stand-up comedians as a comic anachronism.

U-kipper - an MP member of the UK Independent Party or one of their voters. Often abbreviated to "Kipper" (see above).