Ken Livingstone

Penstemmon, I have never thought Livingstone is anti Semitic, just wish he would return to his newts, he really does love the limelight , I accept his right to free speech but he should respect party rules

annie KL would have been deliberately invited by Feltz programme ..he did not wake up one day and think "I will go on the radio to delibreately upset people about Zionism!" In his clumsy way he was trying to do the opposte. The fact of the Havaara agreement exists. The fact that some Jewish Zionists and some leading Nazis were involved in the agreement is an historical fact. KL may have used this fact unwisely and made interpretations that others disagree with but it still does not mean KL hates Jews & is anti -semetic. He dislikes Zionism as a political ideal. If that offends Zionist supporters that is too bad. I dislike a lot of politcal ideals that others support as do most of us!

Why would Livingstone want to destabilise the party, he is a very close friend of Corbyn.!

Livingstone went on that radio programme to defend a female MP who had been suspended for posting a comment that .israel should be moved to America - think I have thus correct - she apologise for her comments but Livingstone did his bit in Hitler supporting Ziionists, he even chose the radio show of a Jew to do so.

To answer Pen's question -yes it's wrong for the Israeli government to pursue its settlement programmes, displacing Palestinian families and olive groves. No it isn't anti semitic to say so.
You may be right in believing that keeping the row about anti semitism in the news being aimed at further de-stablilising the LP. Ken's links to the LP are established and it may have helped if he'd been prepared to accept his comments upset various people, rather than insisting he was in the right.

I do think that there is an orchestrated move to destabilise Lab party (further!) & by keeping the anti-semitism row in the news is a good way to do it!

Answers:

1 No
2 No

AFAIK, Livingstone is in favour of a two-state solution.

I still feel there's something else behind this, but I don't know what.

KL made the comments, a while ago, when being asked, by Vanessa Feltz, about another person's alleged anti semetic FB post.
I met KL a few times when I was teaching near Waterloo station. As a school near to County Hall we often got visits from MPs /mayors etc. He appeared to be a very self-effacing & shy kind of person. Always very personable. I agree that more recently he seems to have become more "in your face".

Q. Do people think it is OK for the Israeli government to pursue its settlement progammes and displace Palestinian families and olive groves? Is it anti -semetic to say that Israel is wrong to do this?

I like Ken Livingstone.

I did forget to include Keir Sarmer in the list, he said Livingstone should have been expelled

What do you expect Trisher, you said I waffle, remember?

Explanation
1. In OP you said 3 people were outraged by KL's words and his suspension and were talking about it.
2. You changed your mind and now it's KL's fault for going to radio stations
3. You don't seem aware of this

Sorry Trisher, din't understand your post, as you pointed out I need things explained more simply, remember ?

So the response of Tom Watson, Lord Levi and the Chief Rabbi you wrote about in your OP had nothing to do with things? It's all KL's fault?

...or if people had just ignored him!

There are all sorts of orthodox Jews. I'm not talking about ultra-orthodox Jews like Haredi.

No, you're not the only one allule. I've given up trying to work out what's really behind it.

There would not have been an uproar if Livingstone hadn't raced around tv studios and radio stations to rabbit on .

Thank goodness! I am not the only one perplexed by this uproar, and wondering what I had missed.

I have friends who are authodox Jews, such strict lives, my friend's mother will not even allow her son in law into her flat if she is alone, it is not permitted. My friend will not answer the telephone over the Sabbeth, 24 hours a week she cannot be reached, she will not even make a coffee. Jalima you are correct , a child is a Jew if their mother is a jewess, .

My youngest sister dated a Jew but he was honest and explained when it came to marriage his parents would ship him off to Israel, he, his brother and sister went to .israel to meet their parents. They too were authodox Jews

Something tells me that club is going to grow with all sorts of weird and wonderful(?!!) people being accepted!!!!!

I don't know enough about LP politics too comment, but I do agree that expressing displeasure at the actions of the Israeli government surely cannot be anti semitic as its the government you're criticising not the ethnicity of its people. We criticise lots of governments around the world but this doesn't mean that you're anti its citizens.
Hitler just wanted Jews out of Germany by any means available, while sadly the rest of Europe and beyond did little or nothing to oppose this including dear old Britain!
Perhaps all this commotion is a red herring by Labour to take the onnus off another problem?!!

I agree with you nigglynellie. I've never had any time for Ken Livinstone and, to be honest, I don't really care whether he's expelled from the Labour Party.

I still don't really understand why he said what he did. I understand that he's made controversial statements about Jews before, so maybe this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Quit frankly, I'm fed up with the way the Labour Party seems to be breaking into factions and don't really understand all the accusations of anti_semiticism either. Whenever I try to look further, all I seem to be able to find is different factions hurling insults at each other, making accusations and counter-accusations.

I've read many times in secondary sources about the way Ruth Smeeth walked out of a meeting after being insulted. The video was available (don't know whether it still is) and she wasn't in tears. The whole thing looked stage-managed. The person who said something which allegedly upset her, was an idiot and the situation was badly managed, but I honestly don't see that it was anti-semitic.

I don't accept that being opposed to the actions of the Israeli government are anti-semitic either, although there are many people who will jump on you for stating that.

It is known that Livinstone believes what is written in Lenni Brunner's book. I haven't read it, but I've read various summaries. Brunner claims that Zionists colluded with the Nazis and were partially responsible for the Holocaust. This is quite a common theme amongst Holocaust deniers. My guess is that some Jews felt that Livingstone was blaming Jews rather than being innocent victims.

Whatever the reason for what he said, he mangled up his logic. What Hitler and the pre-war Zionists did and thought isn't helpful to the current situation. Maybe he should join Michael Howard in the Foot in the Mouth Club.

Yes, thanks daphnedill

Well at least its given poor old Trump a day off. I despair when I see people on here, willing to tear lumps put of each other to prove a point. So not much hope for world peace then even from grans who should know better.

It was words not actions just stating an historical perspective......Blair got away with war crimes and has unleashed much of the carnage going on today.

I can't really think why KL made that remark in the first place except to attention seek! Whatever the rights or wrongs of it, it was bound to cause a storm which he well knew! Likening someone to a concentration camp guard was way out of order, but his persistence on this subject could have better handled and been perceived for what it was, an exercise in self promotion, and should have been treated as such.
Hitler was a megalomaniac, wicked, cruel and cunning. He played on people's fears and prejudices, using anyone and everyone to achieve his own ghastly agenda. Of course the treaty of Versailles, (foolish in the extreme) + the economic crash (the fault entirely of the Jews!!) played right into his hands in stoking up resentment and hatred,so, not forgetting the help of his Japanese allies in the Far East, the paving of the dream of world domination must have seen an easy ambition. The annihilation of the Jews and anyone else who didn't fit into the great scheme of things all part of the great plan.

Joanne I agree it's getting difficult to say anything these days without someone claiming massive distress, but to be fair I don't think KL was simply stating facts. He put the Livingstone spin on what looks like a half truth in a way that maybe suggested that the most hated man in living memory is an example of the sort of person that thought/thinks that a Jewish state is a good idea. Not great, but the reaction seems to me very much over the top.