Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

GGMk2 I seem to have different experience from you re state school lettings/management. Most of the people employed by schools as Bursars or business managers usually have no teaching expertise but come from business / financial backgrounds so do manage the school 'as a business'. I cannot see the benefit of a company, unless it is a not for profit organisation, running a school's lettings etc. Why would the school want to give money to a company/shareholders when, if it is managed in house, all profits go back into the school pot.

PFI is a good example of nightmare outsourcing!

Even our little Victorian infant school (building, a former workhouse, is not really fit for purpose for a 21c school, & where I am currently chair of governors manages to raise several thousand pounds a year from lettings. This includes lettings to a company who run a breakfast club and some after school activities. Evenings/weekends the school is well used e.g. by a local choir, the WI, Swedish school,as a rehearsal space by local Am Dram. Local comprehensive makes a good income too, by letting all their sports facilities. It is busy holidays, weekends and evenings with various sports clubs and kids parties etc.

Of course it would but those people might well pay for themselves and provide more community facilities. All you seem to want is what happens currently and a whinge. Why do you think you know how to manage buildings?

Exactly. It needs a bit of joined-up thinking making the connection between optimum use of a building, maximum income from lets and the cost of building it in the first place and using it part-time purely as a place for primary or secondary education. Spending more on some aspects could produce money to help finance other uses, but it would take planning and day-to-day supervision - and employing more people.

But the state schools appear to be useless at managing the buildings Elegran - actively or otherwise.

Not sure it's so unusual JessM My DGD2's teacher took a month off to get married and travel the Far East. She brought lots of interesting things back with her so that made it okay.

Or they have a serious recruitment and retention problem and were terrified the teacher would resign - and the teacher knew this. She might even have threatened to go

You probably hit the nail right on the head !

I wasn't moving direct from caretaker trouble to lack of value for education. Lack of funding for staff in all branches was the link - teaching, admin, cleaning, supervising. Not valuing education shows in the funding and organisation of it as well as the using of it.

If the buildings are to earn their keep they have to be managed actively, and not be empty or unkempt while they are being so used. Cleaning and maintenance are an important part of having the premises fit to use. Also new buildings have to be fit for purpose and corners not cut in the carrying out or the supervising of contracts (which has recently led in Edinburgh to the lengthy closure of several fairly new-built schools while slipshod work was redone, this causing large-scale shifting of pupils to be squeezed other schools during the work, and great disruption to senior pupils without a base as they prepared for exams)

grannypiper the teacher allowed time off mid term to get married! Astounding.
The head presumably referred this to the governors as it is beyond the normal conditions of employment. There's a long list of things that teachers can have days off for e.g. moving house, interviews, close family member giving birth etc but getting married definately not one of them.
Either the head and the governors are a pushover.
Or they have a serious recruitment and retention problem and were terrified the teacher would resign - and the teacher knew this. She might even have threatened to go. Who knows. But I have never heard the like...

Elegran I am not sure I would agree that the worry about caretakers is a logical step to thinking people don't put value on education. I would agree with you both about the foundation of education in the school years and continuing education which, with changes of working life, AI and robotisation will mean changes of career and not just changes of job and possible periods of part-time or no work where not just the elderly need to be able to access interests, learning and socialising.

However, why do you feel the problem of the caretaker is insurmountable. Why are people who trained as teachers running school buildings. I have seen this from both sides - attempting to rent space and working in a school at a high enough level to see the management skills and they are really bad at it - they are also really bad employers. I don't mean they are bad people but just that only a few do this well - a very few. Why should the buildings not be community buildings with a company running it for all. They would have to let to the education authority for the core hours and some areas may need to be permanently let to them but a company running the building could make it work far more efficiently.

Thinking small will not move us forward. Someone needs to think big.

In my area many schools are used for evening classes and weekend courses, which extends their usefulness.

There are problems though - instead of the janitor/caretaker and his staff giving the place a good clean and still getting time off, someone has to be on duty all the time, and clean and check rooms both before the evening classes and before the children arrive in the morning.

With members of the public in and out of the building, security has to be considered in this terrorist era.

All this costs more out of LA funds, where the supply of money for adult aducation teachers is already drying up and means fewer classes.

It all comes back to the value put on education - and not just education of children and teenagers, but continuing for a lifetime. A lot of the loneliness and ill-health of older people is mitigated by going regularly to a group to learn or keep up an interest, skill or hobby. The value to everyone - old or young, rich or poor, individuals or society.

At one time schools were just about basic education and reinforcing society norms (manners etc) but now schools are on a hiding to nothing; expected by government to be substitute parents and policing parenting, parents resenting over interventions by school staff and a curriculum that is not really fit for 21c and not always fit to engage the wide range of kids because it is generally one size fits all!

Penstemmon I think the issue is not that schools should do everything but that their building needs to be used to do everything. This is why I suggested basically a normal working year with teaching as the "core" of the day but everything else at either end and not involving teachers whose work would be in the core.

The idea that because school is in the building it can only be used by the school is certainly out of date as is the idea that schools/colleges are responsible for all extra-curricular education which the government adds and adds and adds.

When education was expensive and only for the well-to-do, it was valued. Those who couldn't afford it did menial or manual work. Reformers made great efforts to make literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of history and geography available to all. now education in this country is free, universal and, above all, compulsory - so it has become commonplace and undervalued, and even to be resisted and avoided. Funding it is compulsory, too, on taxpayers, many of whom would resent paying more for it, so successive governments try to spend less on it and demand more from those at the sharp end.

I often think this is the case - with the NHS too. What do we do? Charging would be against the whole ethos of 'free at the point of access'. I have sometimes thought we should have to pay and then claim - not thought it for real (because the most needy may go without) but how else do people know what it costs.

Because my daughter teaches young people about to go to University or into a job she set one of their lessons round a personal budget but she also talks to them - when they complain about fees - about the cost of the course they are taking. They only see it as both free and an entitlement.

This is not how those who brought us both modern education and the NHS saw it. They saw it as two sided with responsibility on the side of those who received the education and health care. I do not like the Conservatives attack on groups - those on benefit, etc., but somehow we have to get the idea back that responsibility is something we owe society.

PenstemmonTimes have changed, one of our teaching staff choose a date in the middle of Spring term as her Wedding day, she was given the Thursday and Friday before her Wedding on the Saturday off as well as the following 2 weeks.For twelve days the children in her class had to make do with a mix of T.A's, the Head when she could be spared and parents.Thank goodness it wasn't a S.A.T's year.

There are some heads who stil do use their discretion when "allowing" a few days off in term time and then there are others who refuse to even discuss the reasons why. My DGD's 2 cousins (same age as DGD1and DGS) were "allowed" a week off before the end of term 2 summers ago,(no fines etc) and my DGD' s head refused. Ironically they were going in the same trip of 12 people arranged and paid for by the other grandparents . My son a daughter in law were each fined (they fine each parent?????) three times which was a lot of money to them. Needless to say we all had to "chip in" and despite asking I am yet to know where the money goes. I' pretty sure it doesn't go into the school which is ironic.

The parents who cite cost of holidays as the reason they wish to take their children out of school are presenting a weak argument. Just go on the kind of holiday you can afford! Many families can never afford a holiday, let alone seeing a trip to Disney as some kind of human right.
Many then go on to blame the holiday companies for raising prices. Have they never heard of the law of supply and demand. They discount their prices out of the main holiday season to try to fill up half-empty accommodation and planes. They are businesses not charities and are obliged to try to make a profit for their shareholders. If they holidays were too expensive then nobody would be buying them would they.
In my view heads should be given discretion to grant term-time holidays to families who have a particular need - e.g. not everyone can take their annual leave in school holidays.
Anyone who has ever been in management where the employees have families will know there are always far more people who want to take leave in the school holidays than the rota can allow. Offices, hospitals, police forces, HM services etc cannot just allow everyone to disappear. Same applies to those who work in local tourism. So these people should be given some leeway by the heads.

Elegran Education/school is now expected to deal with all society's shortcomings!

At one time schools were just about basic education and reinforcing society norms (manners etc) but now schools are on a hiding to nothing; expected by government to be substitute parents and policing parenting, parents resenting over interventions by school staff and a curriculum that is not really fit for 21c and not always fit to engage the wide range of kids because it is generally one size fits all!

Yes, Penstemmon Casual "patterns of absence, along with a lack of aspiration or value of education" indeed.

When education was expensive and only for the well-to-do, it was valued. Those who couldn't afford it did menial or manual work. Reformers made great efforts to make literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of history and geography available to all. now education in this country is free, universal and, above all, compulsory - so it has become commonplace and undervalued, and even to be resisted and avoided. Funding it is compulsory, too, on taxpayers, many of whom would resent paying more for it, so successive governments try to spend less on it and demand more from those at the sharp end.

gg2 It is a complex situation, with problems from several directions. You are quite right in saying that a change is needed, but there have been many changes over the last years and all that has been achieved has been to increase the amount of stress on teachers and pupils of being presented with a new set of curricula, tests or record-keeping chores to face just as they got their minds round the last lot.

If I could come up with anything useful I would! The fact that I can't doesn't prevent me pointing out things in your suggestions that I don't think would solve the question of pupils missing lessons, or would not use staff time any more effectively.

joelsnan I disagree with your statement re Asian families and the conclusions you draw.
I have worked in areas with high Asian populations and you are correct that a family visit to India, Pakistan or Bangladesh often exceeded 2 weeks. I disagree that the children returned totally disadvantaged with reduced employment opportunities. The majority of families from the Indian sub-continent greatly appreciated the value of education and were very diligent in seeking advice on work/workbooks etc they should use to minimise the impact of th absence. Of course many of the children were bi or even tri-lingual. This is known to enhance brainpower!
The bigger problem we found was from children regularly missing Mondays/Fridays due to being ' down the caravan', days off because parent was not up in time to get child to school so did not bother at all, parents who wanted to go out with friends and would have to cut their day short to pick kids up so took them with them! Another popular reason for absence was 'It was his birthday so I had to take him out to choose a present' This pattern of absence, along with a lack of aspiration or value of school/education is what caused a clamp down on attendance. That and the fact it was an easy piece of data for governments to manipulate to show they had'made a difference'

Penstemmon I know lots of families who do as you posted. I understand that bit well, I help with my GC and GGC too. But schools doing breakfast - I didn't know.

Norah thousands of babies and children now eat breakfast in nurseries or breakfast clubs. My DD leaves for work at 7:40 and on Monday & Friday DGDs have breakfast at 7:00 and then go to a neighbour who walks them to school. On Tuesday and Thursday I arrive at DD for 7:30 and DGDs have a later breakfast with me & I drive them to school. On Wednesdays they also have a later breakfast as their dad goes to work later on a Wed so he can take them to school. They have a 'nanny' who picks them up M, W & F and takes them home and gives them tea. I do T & Th. Their mum gets home at 6:00. This pattern is the way of life for very many kids nowadays with a huge number arriving at day care/breakfast clubs by 7:30a.m.

You haven't offered any Elegran. It is difficult if not impossible to analyse something that doesn't exist.

I have a couple of friends who are head of schools. One Junior and one Secondary. The first was meant to retire at Christmas but is still working three days a week as they couldn't find a new head. So she is working longer than she intended and the school has her for only three days a week. Things are very wrong in education and a bit of the dreaded blue sky thinking might just come up with some ideas; the cry that you can't know because you were never a teacher - as you said to me - is unlikely to offer anything positive.

I'm not sure that holidays are for the parents' benefit. My friend (teacher and mother) was adamant that all children need a holiday and was keen on helping children from deprived backgrounds getting away for breaks, even just a week in a caravan somewhere.

Holidays in general are for the parent's benefit not the children who in most instances do not care when or where they go. It seems that an overseas holiday has now become part of the life cycle of the Brits along with manicures and waxing .
I think that schools have become stricter in enforcing the holiday policy as a result of quite a significant number of Asian families taking children out of schools for months at a time to go back to their country's of origin. The children return disadvantaged educationally with potentially reduced employment opportunities. I don't know if fining in these instances has made any difference, Fines could not just be applied to these families so I think that is why blanket fining was introduced.

Constructive ideas get analysed and the weaknesses in them pointed out so that they can be altered. Doing that without coming to blows is constructive too.

Please tell me Iam where Elegran has done anything other than offer reasons why my suggestions are not possible. Great Britain certainly did not become 'Great' (whenever that was) because of the criticisers. I may be a long way from what could be done but not a single positive idea was offered.