Should parents take their children on holiday in term time?

The secondary state comprehensive my children attended always seems to have lights on in the late evening whenever I drive past. To my knowledge, the building is used as:

- a venue for evening classes
- sports training (the fitness suite and courts are open to the public, in addition to school teams
- an on-site farm (the sheep use part of the field, when the pupils have gone home)
- a cinema (shared use with the school)
- a purpose-built concert hall (shared with the school and built with a £10 million donation from a parent)
- a music academy (open to pupils from other schools)
- a nursery
- the town's football and hockey clubs
- art exhibitions
- Summer activity clubs and coaching
- children'sparties
- visiting speakers, including Shirley Williams, Germaine Greer and some others I've forgotten.

...and as a place for teenagers to learn.

There might be some more. Is there anything else you could suggest?

I don't see what any of this has to do with solving the problem of parents taking their children out of school to go on holiday.

At the beginning of the thread, I made two suggestions, one of which is almost certainly out of the question, because parents would object strongly.

I am all for getting rid of a government that, through political choice, under funds the provision of high quality public services that I see as a sign of a truly civilised society. I am also not averse to thinking out of the box and doing things very differently!

However the greater use of school premises for different purposes is happening already ..it might be able to be increased but is not easy to make money in some of the antiquated buildings!

GGMk2 you implied in your previous posts that you had some expertise in premises or facilities management. Did I get that wrong?

I know Maizie. I started know what I wanted to say and then got called away and had to dash backwards and forwards over the time, trying it keep up with my train of thought but I imagine everyone else had moved on by then. I probably should have stopped and started again However, life happens for all of us so I won't be the only one that happens to.

It only matters Daphne if that suggestion is one that you will feel solves our problems. All the suggestions I have made are ones I have heard elsewhere.

What I am saying is that we either have to think those things you find unthinkable and continue to treat children and young people as if they are steel going into a factory and the teachers are widget producers who have no professionalism so have to be monitored at every point - and who cares about how education actually works - or we have to think what seems to be unthinkable for many and get rid of the government that thinks all this is OK.

Sorry, GG2. I completely failed to follow your train of thought until I'd posted and then reread your posts

I'm sorry to disagree with you Gg2 but detail is important. I think many people underestimate how much planning goes into the organisation of secondary schools behind the scenes. At the heart of everything a school does must be learning - that's why they exist. It's not an easy job to allocate scarce resources (and resources will always be scarce in an economic sense) in a school with 1500+ pupils, all with potentially different needs.

IMHO one of the biggest problems we now have is politicians and academy chain CEOs' being paid six figure salaries, who don't actually understand the dynamics of a classroom. Something which looks good in theory doesn't work from a practical point of view.

Have you ever worked in a secondary school?

"It seems from your analysis, GG2 that the choice is between state and private"

That is what we have at the moment Maizie and is absolutely not what I have just said - did you read it before you commented?

It seems from your analysis, GG2 that the choice is between state and private. Do we just roll over and let the tories privatise everything?

It seems ironic really that the state has funded education for all children (apart from privately educated ones) right from the inception of compulsory schooling for all children. It was clearly seen that education was a public 'good' and that funding it from taxation was worthwhile. Yet in our rush to return to Victorian values and working practices the principle of free education which the Victorians supported is being lost.

This government feels as though it thinks that people who use state funded services are just a bl**dy nuisance, an undeserving nuisance at that...

The detail is really not important. I could equally have suggested that we start using open university style teaching for secondary age, supported with smaller groups to build on that. I do apologise but having started the conversation I was not being able to continue it properly. I got tied up with things slightly overwhelming in everyday life and then a short bout of illness. However, I will try an explain.

We will have to think, what to some appears to be the unthinkable, if we are to have free education of any kind. As long as people keep voting in a government that will not tax sufficiently to pay our debts or support the services we expect for education, health, support in difficult times, and for our community needs, we will have to find ways to adapt these services and they may not look like ones we have grown up with and they may not be what we expect.

This government is cutting taxes and cutting services - nothing more, nothing less; so how do YOU propose to run these services with less and less funding - in this case particularly education. This is the future as 'the majority of the country' have decided it. These services are reaching or in some cases some have reached breaking point and that is on the breaking health of those working in them and they are leaving at a faster and faster pace and, in many cases not being replaced.

I was trying to suggest that we will not have a change of government; the Tories have convinced the 'majority' that the economy is in safe hands so we must, as I say, try and find alternative ways of educating our children and grandchildren, looking after our health and the care of our elderly and taking care of all the other public services that are - not that slowly - being withdrawn. I don't know how to make this clear in any way other than to shock. It seems to me that I can see huge swaths of our population walking slowly towards the edge of the cliff with the eyes of those under threat not to escape their fate for fear of something even worse - please tell me what could be worse?

GGMK2 What would be your radical actions to change the use of educational premises?

Schools take over so much family time now with the quantities of homework given from such a young age that it seems entirely reasonable that families should be able to recoup some of that precious family time by taking holidays when it fits in with their budget and work patterns.

Parents should retain their right to make reasoned decisions for their own children, based on their knowledge of those children and their own priorities. If that involves a holiday in term time, then so be it.

All our children had two weeks out of school to go to France every year, because of my OH's work patterns. We took the decision that they would learn just as much by being absorbed in another culture for two weeks as they would being in school - our children, our choice. They all have the happiest of memories of those holidays and learned so much; and they all have extensive higher education qualifications now, so lost nothing educationally.

Parents have to retain some rights to determine what they believe to be best for their children. The previous "two week rule" seemed to work well and should never have been abandoned.

I was always told that you don't call people 'she' but use their name Penstemmon - you obviously weren't. That's OK. I know what I think of that.

I agree with you Penstemmon. I've worked for a number of headteachers. Without a shadow of a doubt, the best ones have been those who understood what teaching is all about, have had a vision for education and good management skills. All of them have understood that learning is the core function of schools and have developed skills to make that happen. In secondary schools, headteachers are able to delegate some of those skills, such as accountancy, HR, site management etc, but they should still have the ultimate decision about change. If any change is likely to affect learning adversely, the headteacher must have the power to veto it.

My manners are spot on GGMK2

I was answering daphnedill who asked a question.
I am/was always open to ideas and advice on how to do my job better. I undertook a masters degree in Education Management, have worked with & shadowed business partners. I have worked in businesses as well as schools. I am not unusual amongst HT colleagues. Leadership and management skills are generic. A good leader takes time and effort to understand the context of an organisation and to know the product & its market. Whether I am leading a successful educational establishment or a product focussed business the principles are the same.

I don't have a problem Daphne. I was just making some suggestions. We have moved from teachers/lecturers being mangers of the academic side of education to them being the managers of a business unit with cost centres in the way that a non-academic business would be. What a waste.

Why would I want to rant about teachers - I have already said I have many educators, at all levels, among my family and friends. I just do not think carrying on in the way we have always done will work. It is more noticeable in Universities where they have changed from being academically driven for an elite to being business driven for a approximately half the population. As with all change some of this will be good and some not so good and the teachers are busy job-crafting in order to make it work. Huge amounts of additional work, mainly nothing to do with education and set up by the government to undermine the autonomy of teachers, has just been divided out and added to teachers already heavy workloads.

Penstemmon, I do hope you are not a teacher or ex-teacher as your manners are severely lacking. Who is 'she'?

I don't have the same experience as you with Head Teachers GGM2.

I was a Governor for many years ( like many of us) at both Primary and Secondary level. In both cases the Head was very aware of their knowledge levels and in both cases seconded onto the board people with the right knowledge base.

I would also say , in my experience , I have never met people LESS set in their ways. Progressive - yes. Forward thinking- yes... and I cannot believe they were in the minority. The Head of the Secondary School had the ear of the then Prime Minister because of his ideas for change. That school regularly still receives and outstanding in its Ofsted inspections based on what he started.

JessM Yes the head was useless, she was only ever worried about her outfit for the next day.

S/he thinks schools are underused as business potential & s/he thinks s/he has the answer. Also thinks headteachers cannot have a business mind!!

Maybe it would be helpful if you actually explained what you mean and what your problem is.

It's different in primary schools, because they don't have the money to employ business managers and a site team, but I have never known a head in any secondary school to have much to do with buildings.

You seem to be using this thread to have a general rant about teachers. Frankly, I'm finding your allegations ludicrous.

Headteachers do not need to be in ultimate charge of a building. They (those I have come across) are incredibly set in their ways and have little knowledge of how the real world and commerce work. There are exception of course but we need someone concentrating of the education of our children not how a building is run. As for ex Bankers running the business side of Schools I feel you are making my case!

I do like the idea of education until 90 but right now we need the same opportunities to those up into their 60s to have loans, etc., to get degrees and further. I know the age has gone up but it needs to go up faster.

Headteachers are indeed in ultimate charge but I, and my colleagues were/ are not complete idiots and also know our limits and are not embarrassed to seek advice!
One issue I came across, when working closely with an business partner form Goldman Sachs, was his difficulty in working out how schools /heads did everything they did: HR, Premises management, Finance/Budget management, Social & community work etc. as well as leading the teaching for youngsters who all had a wide range of abilities and needs. I had trouble understanding what he,and his team of eight, did all day when all they had to think about was buying music futures!
Actually we had a very beneficial 6 months and we both learned a lot. However it did not change things radically, I still drove my Ford Fiesta and he his snazzy BMW Z4.
Different worlds!

X post Penstemmon.

All the secondary schools I know have a Business Manager. They're often former bank managers, because so many have been made redundant. There is official university level training for school business management available. Headteachers should be in charge, because the core function of any school is learning and the Business Manager should service that function, not the other way round.

Gg You might be interested in finding out about Henry Morris, who integrated secondary and community education in Cambridgeshire in the inter-war years. He described his ideas as "raising the school-leaving age to 90".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Morris_(education)

Elegran I am no more 'beating you about the head' than you are me. You seem to want everything to stay as it is which is fine but then everything will be as it is and, although you may feel that is fine I don't.

Penstemmon I understand that it is better for a teacher to become academic head of the school but why everything else. Even if you have a bursar the head, who may well have had no management training or experience other than in a school, will be in ultimate charge.

Elegran maybe GracesGranMK2 is part of Capita,G4S or Serco and is drumming up support! We all know how well they are doing running "public services"

When did I say that? And why are you beating me about the head? You said ideas were needed, you put up some yourself then complained when I mildly pointed out practical doubts about them and said I had done nothing but criticise, now you are laying into me for making more suggestions and giving my opinion on where someone needs to do a spot of co-ordination. Someone, not me - I am not claiming to be the expert. I'll leave you to sort it all out without me,