Paying for social care - good news or bad news?

I think this proposal addresses a basic unfairness in the current system - i.e. two people with the same income & assets - one goes into a home and their assets are used to pay for their care - the other stays in their own home and has care workers but their assets are not used to pay for them. This is unfair.
However, the proposal is merely a sticking plaster - it won't solve the problem.
I agree with those who've said we should consider social care in the same way as health care - i.e. funded by the state from the proceeds of NIC and/or taxation. Also there's a real grey area between what is health care for an elderly frail person and what is social care.
The extra money could be raised by making everyone pay NICs irrespective of age - why should a pensioner on an income of £15,000 pay no NICs when a worker on the same income is paying 11.5% NICs?
I have no problem with wealthy people having their care funded in this way - why would I? I've no problem with wealthy people getting NHS treatment or free education for their children.

Above is for gb

At the risk of being called condescending (see James' thread of yesterday) I am so grateful to you all for giving me so much information and so much to think about - especially in the political threads. Most of my friends seem to have the same view as me (anti another divisive independence referendum in Scotland therefore anti SNP) that we mainly end up agreeing with each other. The debate on here is so much more interesting! And thankyou all for sharing links!

Caro the debate on this thread is far far better than any of the discussions I've heard today on the radio - I think our posts are showing what a complex topic this is and it needs much more careful thinking about than its been given in the manifesto

Morgana exactly!

BTW db if you live in your own home at the moment although they don't take the value of your home into account for care costs, they do take into account your other assets over £25000 so you pay for your care in that situation

Daphne, daphne, please don't believe that all of us oppose this because we want our children to inherit (or ourselves). My mother is unlikely to leave anything and I am happy for all capital to be taxed. That is not the point. What about the people who don't own their own homes? They will still be very much at the whim (as it sounds as if your mum is) of the SS. We should ALL have the same offer of social care just as we should have the same offer of health care. If you want more then there is always private care - that wouldn't disappear.

I just can't see how this can be seen by the media a left wing - it is just as Thatcherite as selling off council houses. Just like that I can see why people liked it but how many of those houses are now in the hands of buy to let people. Just like this people with not so much to leave will may be thrilled to know they can leave a little more but what will be the outcome. People getting rich out of care? How will it improve the care service?

Good post gg

I know I keep mentioning NIC continuing after State Pension Age but I think that is because I see it as just another tax - it seems to bear little resemblance to our Pensions which is the only thing it still seems to be attached to. I do think we need a complete review of our tax system but who is going to do that? I suppose what I would like to see is an hypothecated tax for Health and Care. Each party could then say whether they would collect more or less for this service rather than the smoke and mirrors of manifesto offering like today's.

Listening to PM hearing politicians eg Gove who wouldn't get out of bed for less than £100,000, salivating at how wonderful it is that people will be able to hand on such a sum to their children. Sheer hypocrisy

Just watched a poor man and, I think, his mother, who has dementia, on the BBC News. With my much less dramatic, so far, experience I have to agree with his comment. He said he would like to say the care system is broken as that would mean it could be mended but he actually thinks it just doesn't exist. I'm afraid that is where the issues start and this will just not help set up the system we need.

So is it a dementia tax?
Cancer patients receive free treatment, heart and stroke patients are treated free on the NHS. But if you're unlucky enough to get dementia you have to pay for care, either residential care or at home.
I think older people find the dilemma about how the care will be paid for, a major worry.

Yes Rigby46 Full Employers NI (or jobs tax) is still payable after a person reaches state retirement age.

My father has frontal lobe Dementia and moved into a secure Care Home yesterday having been in hospital for several months. No one has mentioned yet that if someone is held under a Section 3 (Section 2 comes first which is observation then Section 3 if they need to remain Sectioned after 28 days) then if they are moved into a Care Home then their fees are paid in full under S117 regardless of savings or property (think of this as going into a Care Home to free up more expensive hospital beds). I found out about this on the internet and made his care team aware that I knew about S117 early into his S3 as I have read many tales of how people were paying for continuing care as family had not been made aware of this funding.
I also found out that while there are many rules regarding disposal of assets to negate having to pay care costs, the one they cannot argue with is prepayment of funeral costs - so get a funeral paid for early rather than paying for it out the remaining £23K currently allowed for.
I personally believe that if a persons Dementia has reached a level where medical professionals decide that a Care Home is the only option then it becomes a mental health medical need rather than a social need and should be funded free at point of service the same as hospital care ,regardless of ability to pay.
I for one am leaving my half of my property directly to my children so they do not loose out including if my husband is fleeced by a new partner (which I have seen with my Aunt); getting a prepaid funeral plan now (am in my early 50s); spending my money to enjoy life now; and setting up a Power of Attorney directly to my children as my husband may not be in place where he should have control of my care (as seen by my Dad having undiagnosed Dementia and in control of my Mums Dementia care and the Drs not being able to do anything about our regularly voiced concerns -although he was ill enough to be Sectioned less than 5 months after her death).

I suppose it is based on the assumption that someone of working age has a chance of getting better from cancer etc. whereas an elderly person with dementia is unlikely to.

My only worry would be leaving the young to foot the bill.

What is the difference between setting up something to avoid paying care costs and someone manipulating the tax system?

Answer. Nothing at all. Both are cheating the tax payers.

Mostly and Lin's posts tie up as yes, of course mental health issues should be treated in the same way as physical ones but, it seems from Lin's post, they will indeed do that - if you are sectioned.

Tax avoidance is not illegal gillybob - I am sure some on here have ISAs and that is setting something up to avoid tax. Equally neither is using your own money according to the rules that apply to care costs illegal. I am not sure why you say either are cheating anyone; they are not.

What should be illegal is treating mental illness differently to physical illness and since when did proper medical care depend on whether you are the right age? The care may be different for different people but it would still be appropriate and still free under OUR National Health System.

Sorry GGMK2, I may be missing something here, but haven't pensioners in general paid NI all through their working lives specifically to fund care in old age?

I never thought that any NI I paid would go towards funding my care in old age should I need it angelab.
I assumed (wrongly, it seems) that it would fund my pension, healthcare - not social care - and benefits for me and also go towards the general fund for anyone else who needed benefits. However, I do know it doesn't work like that.
The need for social care for the elderly has increased and will increase more as the 'baby boomer' generation ages and there are advances in medicine which may prolong life but not necessarily the quality of that life.

So is it not right that those of pensionable age who can afford it pay a reduced rate of NI towards their own health and social care?

dd can Macmillan nurses or whoever is in your mother's area swing into action quickly if you contact them? It doesn't seem right that your DM has no care at home from a qualified nurse.

A house does not have to be sold but it could be let out to fund a place in a care home. A penny in the pound in NI for the care of the old and sick would be a good idea. We in Germany -pensioners as well, pay 1.5% of our income into a care fund. This is doled out to those needing it not as a benefit but as a right, and when people have money to pay carers then it is a different feeling.

It could be that you die suddenly and have needed nothing from all that you paid over the years. Sometimes the house has to be rented out but no state is going to decide what you do with your own house.
Whatever happens it should be seperate from the NHS.
They are just too big and the size is a major problem witht he NHS

Jalima one of the greatest difficulties for those being cared for is not that they need Social Care but that this is often what a need for Mental Health Care is called in order that it doesn't come under the NHS.

Even if, up till now, it hasn't "worked like that" where Social Care is concerned, Councils could always manage because they had enough money to do so. Not only has that money been cut and cut again but the numbers needing Social Care have grown exponentially.

Yes, we should all, including the older generation, pay towards Care but that is not what this is about. It is an attempt to destroy any system that, although it is on the edge, is just about managing to continue. What will you do if there is no system other than what you can pay thousands and thousands of pounds for Jalima? What happens when your money runs out. On this thread at least three or four of us will become demented unless they find a cure. Alzheimer's is such a difficult disease and many families need some or a great deal of help. May is condemning those who will be attacked by it.

This could be a worry if it really happens. Our house is the only asset we have. Because of the ludicrous rise in house prices its value has tripled over the last 15 years so now if I eventually need social care I could end up losing two thirds of that money. The plan was that my children would be able to sell the house and DS would be able to finally get out of rented accommodation and DD would have some money to help support her ADS son. Just have to hope I can keep self sufficient.

"Social" care seems a misnomer almost implying that there is no real medical need, just a bit of help with the trivial everyday activities of getting dressed, bathing and eating.

As someone who bought my home from taxed income, paid NI all my working life and still paying tax on my very modest pension, VAT on utilities, insurance tax etc. I am now expected to pay a tax for being old. I think it's about time the likes of Amazon, Branson, Starbucks, Green et al paid their fair share of tax so that social care would not steal inheritances from the already struggling next generations. I do not accept the 'baby boomer/living longer' excuses - successive governments have known for 60+ years that this situation would arise but preferred to give tax breaks to those far better off than the majority of pensioners who will be hard-hit by this fiasco.