Is it too late for a U turn on Brexit or at least watering it down?

roses

"The Conservatives have denied there is any confusion in their immigration policy after Theresa May signalled she wanted to cut numbers to less than 100,000 a year by 2022.

The target, which is in the party's manifesto but without a timeframe, has not been met since it was set in 2009.

Brexit Secretary David Davis said the Tories would "aim" to hit the target in five years - but could not promise."

It may take ten years or twelve years or more? seems the conservative party is suggesting otherwise..

skwawkbox.org/2017/06/02/huge-tory-immigration-chaos-as-davis-backtracks-on-immigration-ge17/

What rubbish, roses.
We will always need immigration.
Even your esteemed leaderene will not put a date on it, because she knows it's a lie.

It would be stupid to think we can get immigration down quickly, in any case until more British workers have the right training opportunities we need immigration.
It may take ten years or twelve years or more.

And if they did, it would be really bad for our economy. We need workers from abroad to fill all the jobs there aren't people here to take. The only type of immigration we don't want is when the gangmasters recruit loads of East Europeans, bring them here and pay them peanuts.
Those who work on the same terms as everyone else are essential.

By the way, I hope people noticed David Davis saying on QT last night that there was no promise to get net migration down to under a hundred thousand by the end of the next parliament. It was a wish, that's all.
So that means that although they promised it seven years ago, it could take them longer than 12 years to reach that target.
Brexiteers take note.

www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/jun/01/keir-starmer-tells-owen-jones-brexit-is-an-opportunity-for-sensible-immigration-rules

This discussion explains Starmer's thinking on it. It makes sense to me. He says that people equate no freedom of movement with no movement whatsoever, and that's just not true.
Perhaps you could just watch him talking and explaining to Owen Jones. That really is the horse's mouth.

James
We oldies need to admit we got it wrong about leaving the eu

I reiterate what *Charleygirl said. Some of us have no need to admit anything.

The deep concerns by commerce, industry & farmers on our economy and hard times ahead should not be lightly dismissed

Again, that is a very sweeping statement as I discussed the pros and cons with friends and some relatives who are still in touch with many people (managers, chief executives) in commerce, finance and industry and many of these people were in favour of Brexit. Farmers, too, were split on the issue.

Yes, we do need co-operation with other countries regarding security and I hope that this will continue post-Brexit.

They are not FACTS, POGS. They are what May says are facts which are not the same as real facts.

How come you missed this out?

He suggested that it may be possible to renegotiate the rules of Single Market membership. Under the current rules, members must accept open immigration between member states.

GG MK 2

" How do you know POGS that good negotiators cannot come up with a way in which we can be a part of Single Market while moderating the 4 Pillars so that we are what many of the English population have always wanted - outside but benefiting."

If you read my post I clearly say :-

" Unless the EU Commission and Parliament rescind on their stance of telling the UK 'We cannot Cherry Pick" , the Freedom of Movement is non negotiable and the 4 Pillars must stand then we will NOT be able to remain in the Single Market. "

I repeat as it stands the EU Commission and Parliament position is clear. No Cherry Picking and the Free Movement of People is enshrined and will be adhered to.

I have repeatedly said I wish the ' politics and dogma ' of the EU Treaties would not take front of stage and ' wealth & commerce ' are put to the forefront of the negotiations.

Nobody knows what could or might happen AFTER negotiations start but for politicians to give the appearance they KNOW what will happen is disingenuous. As it stands we can only go on the FACTS and the FACT we know at this moment of time is No Freedom of Movement , No Membership of the Single Market.

pogs I will get back to you, but busy cooking at the. Moment and then over to Mums. Sorry for tardiness in my reply.

DJ

"You could actually read what Keir Starmer says, POGS,"

I have heard from the horses mouth and Starmers Speech was muddled.

uk.businessinsider.com/keir-starmer-labour-uk-single-market-brexit-scrap-the-free-movement-of-people-general-election-2017-4

"The free movement of people from Europe and the UK's membership of the Single Market must both come to an end after Brexit, Labour's shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has insisted.

Starmer told an event in central London on Tuesday that continued membership of the Single Market was "incompatible" with the cuts to immigration which Labour wants to see.

"As it currently stands membership of the single market is incompatible with our clarity about the fact that freedom of movement rules have to change," he said, adding that "freedom of movement will have to end."

A modern day fable.

think-left.org/2017/06/02/the-little-girl-and-the-bad-lady/

Did you watch those lovely little foxes last night on Springwatch?

It's like May saying that we are going and if you want us back in you have to agree to what we want.
So the EU says okay, go then.
Then May has to say that's not what I meant at all.
I wonder if she had any friends at school.

In some other cultures they understand about enabling your negotiating partner not to lose face.

The EU has come up with different solutions for different countries and there is no reason why a new solution should not be found but we will have much less chance if the loud-mouthed May continues to push them into corners. If she was strong she would ignore what is coming from them and keep quiet at this point.

How do you know POGS that good negotiators cannot come up with a way in which we can be a part of Single Market while moderating the 4 Pillars so that we are what many of the English population have always wanted - outside but benefiting. We have chosen to lose some of the benefits of belonging; indeed it is obvious that some who voted to leave did not understand what they would be losing. However, we can negotiated and it will bring a balance of losses (which the government has decided was what the country asked for) and benefits but I want the best team to do this. Some of this team will be the same whoever is in power but the direction of negotiation will be very different.

It may not be possible but to start out believing it will not will mean it is not possible from the start.

You could actually read what Keir Starmer says, POGS.

Whitewave Thu 01-Jun-17 19:44:14

"Pogs" I think that you either do not understand the nuances of the negotiations ahead or are deliberately misunderstanding what Starmer is saying."

So what is your answer to my question if I am ' not understanding the nuances of the negotiations '?

" How can you stay in the Single Market when the UK would have to comply with the 4 Pillars/Freedoms enshrined in the EU one of which is accepting the Free Movement of People? "

Other than the EU Commission and Parliament rescinding their stance of ' No Cherry Picking ' the UK cannot remain a member of the Single Market , it is thus far a hope, a desire but not a practicality unless the EU Commission and EU Parliament give way on said Free Movement of People . It could happen but it is disingenuous of any party to say that it could / will happen as things stand at present.

inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-mays-hard-brexit-stance-will-leave-us-crashing-no-deal/

www.theguardian.com/global/video/2017/jun/01/keir-starmer-tells-owen-jones-brexit-is-an-opportunity-for-sensible-immigration-rules

voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/06/01/sir-keir-starmer-would-give-scotland-ni-and-wales-a-say-on-brexit/

How can you stay in the Single Market when the UK would have to comply with the 4 Pillars/Freedoms enshrined in the EU?

Even the EFTA / EEA countries have to abide by the Freedom of Movement of goods, capital, services and persons.

Unless the EU Commission and Parliament rescind on their stance of telling the UK 'We cannot Cherry Pick" , the Freedom of Movement is non negotiable and the 4 Pillars must stand then we will NOT be able to remain in the Single Market.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/05/labour-manifesto-2017-whats-changed-leaked-draft

"The most significant change in terms of policy is the commitment to ending the free movement of people within the European Union, though Labour is still in “have cake and eat it mode”, in committing to retaining the full benefits of single market membership and ending the free movement of people. (You can have one, but not both.) "

Not actually muddled thinking at all - he is stating what he would like to negotiate for but at the same time realises what we would need to accept to get the deal he would like.

Spectator won't let me look.
Nothing muddled at all. He doesn't want us to come out of the single market and the customs union.
Is that not a better negotiating stance than May saying we're out of everything?
At least he's setting the country up for negotiation.

"Pogs" I think that you either do not understand the nuances of the negotiations ahead or are deliberately misunderstanding what Starmer is saying.

Listening to Keir Starmer now on Sky News with Dermott Murnaghan as I type.

One minute he says he wants to negotiate for the Single Market and the Customs Union , then he says he understands that can't happen unless we accept Free Movement of People but we will not have Free Movement when we leave the European Union.

He had the same muddled thinking when he gave his recent Brexit Speech.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/04/keir-starmer-labours-great-hope-party-really-trouble/