Is it too late for a U turn on Brexit or at least watering it down?

The Referendum was held the same weekend as Glastonbury - don't suppose too many of them realised about postal votes till too late.

Luckygirl does have a point on both sides in the referendum there was misinformation and scaremongering. The REMAIN campaign was complacent but as time has shown mostly true. The LEAVE campaign told some truly blatant lies. So how were we to really know what was best at the time. I voted REMAIN as did nearly all my friends and in hindsight still feel that was the right decision. The whole thing was a fiasco, the result unsound and in reality the consequences dire. If the youth vote had bothered to vote last June the referendum would likely have gone the other way. After the general election it has become evident just how flawed Brexit is. It looks like we are going after a Soft rather than a Hard Brexit. For a soft Brexit we have to agree to free movement of people and pay a part of the membership bill with little say in what's going on. That's how it is likely to be, most of us don't like it. The only logical way forward is to admit that Brexit was an awful mistake and hope that too much damage has not already been done.

With Brexit say good bye to so many jobs, years of struggle which has already started. Why can't the Leaders of both the Conservative and Labour parties understand this? Perhaps they do but do not know how to admit they may be wrong. TM goes on about the "Will of the People" the election result showed that has almost certainly changed.

I suspect that a majority of MP's think that way too but lack the courage to say so. Parliament has the power to act but probably not the will.

So I googled it but couldn't see that petition

Cheers WW will take a look

There are actually a couple of petitions and the like going round saying that the GE showed that there was no appetite for a hard Brexit etc. There is one being done by the ALDE group of the EU --- Guy Verhofstadt and I thick Michel Barnier. I had it sent to me and signed it - if you are interested I would think googling it would find it.

Yes!! Like me then with phone!

Had to grin at May talking in France about a United Britain.. Her programme is obviously not up to date

Aargh! Sorry, I confess that I didn't read it. I wasn't at home, so using my phone and I'm not very nifty with it. Is it in the Graun?

You seem to have considered your vote to leave in a thoughtful way, Luckygirl, but how bad would things have to become before you might revise your opinion and admit that you were misled?

dd Mason actually did distinguish between the elite -hedge fund, property speculators crooks etc. And business.

Thank you for arguing your case coherently luckygirl. I don't agree with your conclusions - or at least, my priorities are different - but it's food for thought and I respect your views.

I think that unless someone has the guts to stand up and say we must stop take a deep breath and think exactly what we are doing.

Brexiters are so hell bent on Brexiting regardless of what damage we are doing they are trying with every trick they can to steamroller us along without any questioning allowed

I would slightly disagree with Mason, because the "business class" itself is split. Some are like Arron Banks, Peter Hargreaves and other insurance/hedge fund bods, who benefit from a less regulated market.

With some exceptions, the manufacturing "business class", including engineering, pharma, IT and research, are against Brexit, because the EU is essential to them.

I'm never quite sure who the "ruling elite" are supposed to be. Certainly, we now have a class of politician, who knows nothing about jobs outside politics (don't start me on my recently parachuted-in and elected MP ), but it seems that there's a battle going on between established power and Arron Banks and his merry gang, who are seeking to become the new elite.

I am not a "Bold Brexiteer" but on balance, after studying the options in detail, I did vote to leave. And I am still here on the forum (so far ). I was horrified by the referendum campaign, and its childish polarised scare-mongering declarations, so set about studying the views of erudite economists and others on each side of the argument. I was very saddened that the referendum campaign was not conducted in that way, with one leaflet to all homes providing summaries of the arguments on both sides and links to further information. The campaign was a complete disgrace that in no way furthered the best interests of the country and DC should be thoroughly ashamed of himself.

A brief summary of my reasoning is as follows:large conglomerations of countries (blocks) are more likely to get into large-scale world confrontations; we had never really been proper members - always arguing the toss about all the things we did not want (e.g. euro)- either we needed to be part of the club or not - the half-hearted arrangement was neither fish nor fowl and PMs returning empty-handed from Brussels was becoming a regular occurrence; the wastefulness and cumbersome processes of the EU were a concern - the fact that they decamp regularly at the cost of £millions for no purpose is a prime example - you could not find anyone who thought it was a good idea, but the processes did not exist to stop it; the encroachment of the EU in all areas of life had moved too far from the original (and laudable) concept of a common market - this mission creep seemed to have no end point; all countries need immigration and I welcome that, but all countries need to have some controls in place that suit their particular circumstances (and especially a small island)- it was clear that the perceived loss of control over this was causing bigotry to thrive and that something needed to happen to deal with that. Those are just a few of the aspects of my thinking. I have got used to being abused for what was a thoughtful and considered decision.

BUT - I have been appalled that the negotiations have been monopolised by one particular party and its views. It is not a party issue. The principle that all parties and shades of opinion should be taken into account in the discussions just seemed (and seems) to me to be the only sensible way forward; and when TM started her "Hard Brexit" and "bloody difficult woman" diatribes I was truly horrified. How dare she!

However, this somewhat shambolic GE does seem to have shaken the old bat up, and her more measured back benchers are saying she must consult widely and not bung the plans and negotiations into her handbag, lock it tight shut and dash off over the channel with them. John Major was very interesting on this subject on R4 today, and if this GE results in a more measured and adult approach to Brexit then that has to be a good thing.

Party politics has a lot to recommend it, particularly as it creates outlets for a wide spectrum of opinions and (to some degree) a built-in opposition to hold the government to account; but when it comes to Brexit, it has lead us into untold problems. Let us hope that something a bit more balanced might now prevail.

It is wrong to assume that all those who voted leave are ignorant, uneducated bigots - disagree with the decision by all means, but this disagreement needs to be entered into with respect on both sides.

Does anyone actually admit to being pro Brexit? You'd think they would all have melted away from shame!

Economy slowing down

I suppose Brexiters think it's worth it

Inflation up to 2.9%. Ordinary folks budgets being squeezed.

I suppose Brexiters still think it's worth it

Independent reports that Brussels are pushing ahead with plans to take over the London clearing house

Oh dear it's beginning to look worse and worse!

Why can't we just go back to as we were before the referendum it really is such a mess.

One thing I am waiting for is the two other countries - as most think of the UK Parliament is also the English Parliament - to start using whatever power they can muster to insist they are involved in the Brexit negotiations. I surely must be cross party.

But it must be understood "that the British ruling elite are not the same entity as the business class. They have vastly differing interests.

I read that article whitewave and that phrase jumped out at me too.

Interesting article by Paul Mason

He is arguing that Brexit has been an unwanted gift to British Business. Even it its softest form it means 10 years of disruption, inflation, higher interest rates and an incalculable drain in the public purse. It disrupts the supply of Labour; it threatens to leave the U.K. as an economy without a market.

But it must be understood "that the British ruling elite are not the same entity as the business class. They have vastly differing interests.
The elite are quite detached from British business - they are in fact the money men who run hedge funds, property speculation and crooked deals.
They are responsible for turning the Tories from a party of liberal globalists to die-hard Brexiters.
This Hard Brexit will cause a permanent economic crises, permanent austerity and a permanent set of enemies.

The British people saw through it. What we have learned is that how easy it has been for networked, educated people to see through all the bullshit.
They have organised themselves into tactical voting websites and united around a new basic set of values once someone enunciates them with cheerfulness and goodwill as Corbyn did."

I've just heard John Redwood say that we're going to offer the EU a really good deal!

In denial?

It's noticeable that our Bold Brexiteers have more or less left the forum since the result of the GE has been known.
Is it because they are absolutely confident that Brexit will happen and they can't be bothered to argue the toss with us any more?
Or is it because we Remainers are too leftwing for their liking so they've no interest in our political musings (I do know that they'll claim to have been bullied off)

Either way it's a shame because I really, really would like to know what they would do if Brexit were cancelled. I've asked twice on other threads and haven't had any response at all.

cinders:
One of the things the Brexiteers did say during the referendum was that it didn't mean leaving the single market. Now since you can't cut off free movement and stay in the single market this was yet another lie, but lots of people believed them.
Of course we are better off in than out. We have great influence in the world through the EU, and great influence within the EU when we choose to use it.
This isn't a divorce, it is a separation of conjoined twins!

cinders

I havent felt so optimistic since the referendum.