What PR would have given

The system I would like would keep election in NI, Scotland and Wales separate from England. Reduce the number of constituencies by 30%. Each larger constituency to have an MP elected on a FPTP basis. But each ballot to show all national parties some with no actual candidate in particular areas. After the vote added up everything vote for each party in all constituencies in each of the 4 areas.

Then work out how many seats each party would have got under a total PR system, subtract the number attained by the FPTP vote to give a figure of the number make up members for each party. Where a party already has more than their PR share the other parties have their make up quotas raised pro-rata to make up numbers. Then each party has a number of make up candidates. Finally select the make up members from the top loosers in the main ballot.

No, but we elect an MP, who represents us in parliament, theoretically.

If we had another system then who would govern at local level?

Why would having PR make any difference at local level? Local government is not tied to national government.

I voted for AV when it was floored.

Something needs to change but what?

I am really undecided about fptp, I can see that is stops people voting with their true intentions but it does deliver a local, accountable elected representative. It also delivers clear leadership most of the time, but is that a good thing? If we had another system then who would govern at local level?

How come so many of us can agree that is true but can't see a way to get rid of FPTP?

The bottom line is that FPTP is totally undemocratic.

Luckygirl what you say is right because under PR people would vote differently. However the only figures we have as those from the general election. Those show just how unfair FPTP is to all parties except the Conservatives. A pure PR system is probably not right for the UK because of regional parties like the SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP etc. We would need separate PR areas for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. There does need to be a means of allocating MP's to areas other than FPTP. This is possible with a little thought.

There is no way a PR result can be postulated for this election, as PR systems differ from each other.

That would give the LibDems another headache Varian.

Here is a projection of the votes for each party under PR. Obviously there is a fair amount of speculation regarding the system used but it does show how much more evenly seats would have been allocated and the possibilities of various coalitions.

www.indy100.com/article/uk-election-map-proportional-representation-system-2017-conservative-labour-7784956

The composition of German coalitions since 1949 is quite interesting:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Federal_Republic_of_Germany_governments

Merkel's current government is a coalition between the CDU/CSU (conservatives) and the SPD, which is a social democratic party broadly similar to the right wing of the Labour Party.

Coalitions have given Germany a remarkable amount of strength and stability (take note Mrs M ).

In 2010 the Liberal Democrats won 23% of the vote which should have resulted in 150 seats under PR. Under FPTP only 57 were elected ( not 42 but still far too few)

Germany has three fairly large parties, so no matter what the election result, a combination of two of them can usually be guaranteed a majority. Occasionally they have brought a smaller party in, but usually it is not necessary because When a government consists of two big parties they are more or less on an equal basis in the colalition

In 2010 when the Liberal joined coalition with the Conservatives toform the government, because there were only 42 LD's, their clout was limited. They were thrown a few scraps and then just seen as voting fodder.

So many people voted tactically, we can't tell how people would have voted if they were voting for a party instead of their local candidates.

MOnica I agree with you about the Knesset. So why does PR work in Germany? Merkel has never led a majority government. Hans-Dietrich Genscher, who was Foreign Minister for decades and oversaw the reunification process and thawing of relations with Russia, was a member of the FDP (the equivalent of the LibDems), which has only ever had a handful of delegates. Germany has had the most stable and consistent policies since the end of WW2, mainly as a result of PR.

I don't like the link with my MP. She's a Maybot minibot, who thinks (amonst other things) that fox hunting is a legitimate and humane form of vermin control, while boasting about her role in stopping illegal dog fights when a London Assembly member. . I'd rather have a local team with some balance to represent me.

I agree with most of what has been said. If we had PR there would no need for tactical voting and we could all vote for whichever party we believed in. There would almost certainly be minority governments for ever more. That need not necessarily be a bad thing as MP's would have to learn to legislate by consensus. Other countries with PR can manage this so why can't we. No more swings from left to right and back each undoing what the previous lot has done; all very expensive.

I agree with Varian. Although it is interesting to look at the 'what if we had had PR' figures but I think people would vote differently if we did.

But no doubt as part of a larger County Council. I seem to remember there being a three way split in a Council some years ago, and while there were a limited range of issues the parties could agree on, on many issues they were completely split and in disarray.

I cannot remember what happened, County Councils seem to have some members up for re-election every year, so possibly the problem was solved a year later.

First past the post resulted in two Labour, two Conservative and one Lib Dem councillor for our County Council.

There is no evidence what so ever that in any situation parties would vote for the common good. Most would do as they always do and do in other countries that are in this situation and that is vote for their own narrow interests or to do down another party.

Take a look at how the Knesset works in Israel.

I would never take any notice of any poll asking 'what if'. Look how wrong some political polls have been, which ask people their actual voting intentions when an election is only days away.

PR in my ward (local elections) returned 1 Libdem..2 SNP and 1 Tory. Pretty representative i'd say.

I believe that if we had PR people would vote for positive and not negative reasons and that would affect the overall numbers. Everyone knows that the smaller parties are seriously handicapped by FPTP, especially the LIbDems who have always had a pretty even spread of support geographically and demographically and lack the clout of billionaire backers, trade unions or the vested interests of the MSD.

I can remember a poll just before the 1979 general election when voters were asked "If you thought the Liberals could win, would you vote for them?" An astonishing 42% said "yes" and yet shortly after we saw Thatcher elected with a substantial majority and look what damage was done over the following years.

It depends on how many parties are involved. At local government you are talking about cross party co-operation between two parties, plus the odd independent. At national level it would be very different, because there would be (on OP's figures), 2 other parties with very opposing agendas with between 20 and 50 votes each and another two, also with very different and polarised agendas with around 10 each plus a smattering of parties with a handful of votes each.

Getting a majority on any subject by either of the main parties would depend on them getting LD and UKIP to agree or get one of them plus three or four smaller so UKIP and SNP, and Greens, plus a couple of welsh nationalists, several DUP MPs.

It would end up with pork barrel politics of the worst sort, with the smaller parties calling the tune on significant issues, where their views are not representative of most of the electorate. Let us say some agreement on the forcible repatriation of all released prisoners who are not British citizens to get UKIP on side.