So what do we want?

Why do some people insist on comparing "us" (the UK) with France, Germany, Sweden or any other country for that matter?

We are the UK.

Unless the treasurers were prosecuted it is wrong to claim they stole

Well said crafting. Labour thinks anybody not rich should vote Labour. I remember hospitals closed in 70s Strikes Labour in power. Poor robbing poor is worse than rich robbing us. Labour Treasurers stealing members contributions.I know this because my Dad was Local Labour Sec. He left after cash went missing.

This article is based on the USA but relevant to our economy.

joannewton46 is right. Our tax as a percentage of GDP is far from high by comparison to say, Germany or France and that is well before you get anywhere near Sweden.

jefm I'm pleased to hear about your NHS Trust (I have a vague recollection of reading about it somewhere or seeing a programme on tv about it) and the fact that you are helping others to achieve what yours has.
Your Trust has shown that it can be done and should be an example of what can be achieved with the right attitude and hard work.

Sadly I don't think any government these days has the balls to put up taxes, even to pay for the NHS.
The Lib Dems proposed putting 1p in the £ on income tax to fund the NHS.
However, I think that more is needed.

The list is far too long, and dependant on the 5% on high taxpayers and businesses too risky

If people want to save serious money on healthcare, they need to face up to the fact that we might not be able to afford expensive cancer drugs or care for very premature children - or, at least, that they will only be available for those who can afford them
I'm not sure why you would pick those two instances daphnedill - is it because they are more emotive than, say, obesity or a heart attack?

Someone needs to look at and reduce the enormous amount of waste in the NHS, to find more efficient use of equipment instead of it being discarded, being the 5th biggest employer in the world the NHS should be able to bargain better with drugs companies and get a better deal on drugs from aspirin to the most expensive cancer drugs. I do realise that pharmaceutical companies need to make a good profit from their drugs in order to fund research but better deals could be struck. Training (free of tuition fees) and employing more nurses would reduce the need to use 'bank nurses' where the cost is much higher than one employed by the service itself. A need for agency nurses will always be there because of the need for flexibility.

I don't think we need to think about cutting care for premature babies or cutting innovative drugs which in fact are cost-effective because they help to prevent people having to be admitted as in-patients at a cost of approximately £3-400 per day before treatment.

Let's be realistic. The country can't afford what we would all like ON ITS CURRENT FINANCES. The answer is obvious - put up taxes. The system can be worked so that the poorest would not be affected. Remember 33% basic rate of income tax in the 1970s? Sadly I don't think any government these days has the balls to put up taxes, even to pay for the NHS.
I think it's Sweden where the tax rate is 50% but then all education, health and social care etc is free to all. I wouldn't object to that - but I think many would so it won't happen.

I doubt being orphaned age four would cause humour for the majority

Sorry can't help it but these posts about how hard things were always reminds me of the 4 Yorkshiremen
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k

I have had a very hard life being an orphan from age 4 and have worked hard and always voted Tory. I am fed up of being insulted by left wing people!

No one has insulted you Annofarabia, in fact I don't think you have posted on this thread before. What they may do is comment on and disagree with your views. Although you have every right to hold them, once you express them you have no right to expect people to agree with them.

This is not a thread about where your politics stand and we have already had Lilyflower inflaming things for no reason by having a go at those who are 'left', so could we just know what you would like to see any government doing without the uncalled for attack on people who have not said anything to you.

I thing everyone expects the Government to take care of them nowadays. I thing we should take more responsibility for our lives and not expect other tax payers to sub us all the time.

What would you suggest our government uses our taxes for; after all it is their job to spend our money in the interest of the people in our country. A none judgemental answer would really help the discussion.

The health service is an INTERNATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE . And is unsustanable
No political.party will try to sort this out as it's political suicide
They should all get together and come up with a solution before the cost bankrupts the country..The fraud , the waiste etc all need to be tackled. Every party is to scared to do this. You should not be able to arrive I this country have free health care . Give birth etc until.you have paid a certain amount in to the system. Don't tell me it's impossible to do this. Just cross the channel and try to even see a doctor before you pay first.

I have had a very hard life being an orphan from age 4 and have worked hard and always voted Tory. I am fed up of being insulted by left wing people! I thing everyone expects the Government to take care of them nowadays. I thing we should take more responsibility for our lives and not expect other tax payers to sub us all the time.

Thanks for the chart Anya. The sad thing about the debt created by the Conservatives is that it's produced very little. You can see quite clearly that the debt has risen, despite austerity, which has caused real suffering.

Part of the reason for that is that productivity is low and the amount the government can collect in taxation is low. That's why the economy needs stimulus. The faster money flows, the more opportunities the government has to collect tax and redistribute wealth to those who need it most. That won't happen when demand is suppressed.

Investment in education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc. does, at least, produce tangible outcomes.

jefm

Well, good for you! I went to a direct grammar school and university and worked for decades paying tax and NICs. I'm 62, so won't get my state pension until I'm 66.

I've always tried to pay my own way too. I was left with two children of 3 and 8 with no maintenance from their father or help from the state apart from universal Child Benefit, so I struggled for as long as I could with childcare and a mortgage.

You're not the only one, nor am I. There is no way in a million years I could have afforded private education for my children, nor could I have afforded to pay for their university education. My DD has a debt of about £30k and my DS, who is still at university will probably have a debt of about £80k, especially if he does a masters. I don't know many people who have that kind of money sitting around, so don't claim that it's something anybody could do.

I lost my house, having paid a mortgage for nearly 30 years, so now pay rent. I get absolutely no help from the state, because I am deemed to have too much capital, although it's going down fast and nobody will give me a new mortgage. I know I'm going to have to work until I drop. My children won't inherit anything, even though I've worked hard.

Yes, you've worked hard - so have millions of other people, but some have been unlucky, so I find your smugness somewhat irritating.

Who says we couldn't afford the Labour Party proposals? The IFS? If that's your source, they've been taken apart. 149 economists wrote a letter to the Guardian praising the Labour Party manifesto in economic and social terms. It would have been affordable. It depends on priorities.

Source: UK Office of National Statistics

trudie we all agree these are going to cost. But we are a wealthy country and ought to aspire to decent education, health and social care, security and policing, transport (thanks to ?? who threw that into the mix) etc..

I find generally it is true that you get what you pay for in terms of quality.

Can I repeat jefm the fact, stated upthread that no one party has a monopoly on borrowing to fund their programmes. If you care to investigate you will find the National Debt in 2017 is the biggest it's even been.

This discussion is ambling along quite nicely, so please no shouty capitals and keep in mind you are stating your opinion only, not facts.

just saying

I'm willingly too but how much more would we have to pay to do all That?

Dear smileless 2012, so early on in the blog what terrific good sense you spoke of. I work in the NHS in one of ONLY 2 TRUSTS in the country to achieve a CQC OUTSTANDING rating. We are even working hard at bringing 4 yes 4 other hospitals in the NW up from INADEQUATE to at least the next level. And guess what there is plenty of funding out there for NHS leaders who are willing to enact sustainable change. We were funded an extra 30 million yes million pounds to help bring these failing hospitals up to scratch ,why because we weren't winging we were bringing our own team up to OUTSTANDING. We have a surplus in funds would you believe. Jeremy Hunt has tried so hard to encourage good leadership and collaboration, but politics often gets in the way. Re Education, my father worked at Fords for 40years, we lived in a council house, I went to grammar school and have consequently achieved above the norm for a woman of my age now 66! I brought up 2,sons from 13.and 11 on my own, managed to fund from 16- 18 private schools by taking out loans and then sent them to University, I had a small grant but it still cost me 15k for 1 son and 21k ( a masters degree) for the other.and they came out with large student loans. Re the police force, crime has fallen, the terrorist attacks it has been said by all independents could not have been prevented by more police on the streets. I am one for doing things for myself and not having them done for me. The winter fuel allowance because I have worked hard for 30 + years means I have a company pension so I can do without it for others who can't. The social care discussions have to be had. At only 23k savings protected at present I would have lost my house anyway. And so on and so on. We are so gullible ,the facts are there through independent analysis. we COULD NOT AFFORD the Labour Party proposals no matter how much they gloat now and no matter how many young people vote for them. Once again if elected they will leave us with NO MONEY left as they did before. Let's wake up to reality PLEASE.

Do you need an appointment earlier than three to four weeks amt101. I have to see a physiotherapist and my appointment is in six weeks but the world will not come to an end meanwhile - and I could have had one a week earlier but it was harder to get to.

I did say I didn't think you were uncaring and I suggested that a) we need more triaging at surgeries but b) people complain even when they are getting appropriate treatment - just not what they grew up with.

Wise words daphnedill I agree it's not going to happen anytime soon but what I do think was inspirational and encouraging this time around was the amount of young 'uns engaging and being inspired by the politics being played out before them. Social media interaction was massive and they seemed to be wise to "spin" and eager to strip away the waffle.. well downright lies in some cases..to get to the truth. Maybe there's hope for us yet.

patricia That would be wonderful, but it's not going to happen. "One nation" politics is extinct. We'd probably need a war to bring us all together - and I most certainly don't want that. I firmly believe we get the politicians we deserve and I think there's something pretty rotten about society.

It's not that we don't have enough sweeties to go round - we do - but that some people think they have a right to more sweeties than others. We also forget that sweetie factories can produce more sweets if necessary, so that everybody receives at least a few.

amt101 I have an appointment to see a doctor or nurse practitioner every two months and other appointments for blood tests - always pre-booked. I can tell that the surgery has been getting more rushed over the last few years. I don't see how paying to queue jump would help the overall situation. It would just mean that people like me with chronic conditions would have fewer appointments and/or less time would be spent on them.

I would seriously struggle to pay for appointments and prescriptions and there have been times in the recent past when I really couldn't have afforded them at all. I worked and paid my taxes and NICs (still do, but a lower rate) for years to pay for other people to be treated, so I would be very annoyed at any attempt to kill me off prematurely, while others queue jumped.

I don't think it's good enough to shrug one's shoulders and admit that some find it difficult to pay or come out with the "no magic money tree" myth. It's a choice not to distribute resources equitably and people are waking up to the reality.