So what do we want?

Thank you Norah for getting the thread back on line and addressing the central issue which is how to pay.

We seem to have those who think it's unaffordable, for various reasons. But it really isn't.

Norah has 'cut to the chase' and stated it exactly in her last sentence.

Well, Anya,
While people refuse to address the question of how money is 'created' we're not going to get any further with 'how to pay for such a programme'. We're just going to get the same old mantras trotted out about freebies and unaffordable and plunging the nation into debt etc. And we'll end up going round in circles yet again.

By 'created' I don't mean earned. I mean where does it originate; how does it get into the economy. How can the scenario I gave be explained. We really need to understand this (as a nation, not just us on Gnet) before we can move our economic thinking forward.

Yep!

Oh dear, if economists can't decide on the best way forward what help for us uneducated masses.
[sigh]

Jalima There have always be disagreements between groups of economists, broadly those who follow Keynes and those who follow Hayek.

In the last few decades, there has been a free trade "laissez faire" approach, which has quite clearly failed, apart from for a handful of wealthy people.

The job of economists is to interpret that and make new suggestions.

There is a consensus that more state intervention and stimulus is needed to get economies back on track.

Still ignoring my 'Where does money come from, how is it created? question.

It has to be absolutely fundamental to the question of how do we pay for all these things.

I believe, incidentally, that the mechanism for 'creating' money is probably the one thing that economists do agree on.

I thought money DID grow on trees!
We no longer have the gold reserves either - wasn't it Mr Brown who sold those? I never agreed with that - rather liked the idea of all those nuggets of gold in the vaults of the Bank of England or in Fort Knox - do they still have theirs does anyone know?

It seems much of the problem is the distribution of money - I understand that small businesses cannot afford to pay higher wages because of their costs and being unable to raise their prices and keep the business - but it actually ends up with the tax payer subsidising the big fish who are squeezing the small businesses just for their own gain.
I suppose printing money is cheap enough and most of the money in our accounts is 'on paper' money anyway.

Does anyone understand these 'bitcoins'? They are a total mystery to me what you do with them.

The value of money used to be tied to gold reserves, Welshwife but we abandoned the 'gold standard' in 1931. Now its value isn't actually tied to anything.

Still ignoring my 'Where does money come from, how is it created? question.
well, I saw the new £1 coins being churned out at the National Mint and even made one myself

ducks for cover

What may be a good idea is for those who know 'Where does money come from, how is it created^? it possibly could be a good idea to post an idiot's guide to 'Where does money come from, how is it created?' instead of asking the question of people who are responding.

Some posters do explain things in a sensible way which is helpful and not as offputting.

people who are not responding

Yes I knew about the gold reserves DD and after so much money in circulation needing to have the equivalent value ctually as gold bars in the Bank of England - found that concept fascinating.

If a labourer works a 40 hour week on the minimum wage he earns £300, he takes homes £ 265.54 . I think that's more than very little

Do you know anyone on minimum wage Annie? The hours are not usually as much as 40 - more like 36 - and often the jobs are actually temporary and so holiday money is also deducted. Besides the tax there is also NI contributions. You also need to factor in the cost of housing and Council tax for a family before you start adding things like the need for many people to run a car to be able to do any sort of work. I know families in these circumstances - even with working tax credits plus things such as housing benefit it is far from being a luxury lifestyle!

That is precisely why some of us (well, anniebach and I for a start) are wondering why tpeople on a low wage but in the income tax bracket should be asked to pay more income tax to fund non-essentials like school dinners for the children of the wealthy who attend state schools, music lessons and instruments for pupils in well-off families etc.

I am not saying that school dinners, music lessons etc are wrong - certainly not - but wondering why the poorer should help to fund the wealthier by an increase in tax.

Yes I know several Welshwife

hope I wasn't misinterpreting what you meant anniebach from what you said in an earlier post.

Why should a young man with a partner and baby who takes home £265.54 and rents in the private sector so high rent pay for the three children of a doctor have free dinners or have free music lessons and several children of teachers too, I have counted nine teachers childrens in local schools

Tell me that is taking care of the many not the few, rubbish

why tpeople on a low wage but in the income tax bracket should be asked to pay more income tax

Who is asking them to do that?

No Jalima, not at all. I am so against this free school meals and free music lessons for all, sounds great in the little red manifesto book but not good for the many on the minimum wage . Many are on the minimum wage but to promote
Corbyns manifesto this is denied .

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GG, how dare you say I am making it up.,

What may be a good idea is for those who know 'Where does money come from, how is it created'? it possibly could be a good idea to post an idiot's guide to 'Where does money come from, how is it created?' instead of asking the question of people who are responding.

Problem is, Jalima, that if someone does try to explain how money is created they are attacked for being 'leftie' and citing economists, who, it seems, nobody believes anyway.

So I thought it might be a good idea if people had to think about it themselves. Then perhaps the penny might drop that there isn't really a limited supply of it.

An apology for accusing me of lying please GG .

Anyone can telephone ACAS and check the figures I have given

Is there any reason why any children of labourers on minimum wage shouldn't have free music lessons? In the long, the children would benefit.

If you take this argument to its logical conclusion, why should the labourer on minimum wage pay for free bus passes and Winter fuel payments for rich pensioners?

Why should higher rate taxpayers be subsidised for pension contributions at twice the rate of basic rate taxpayers? And an infinitely higher subsidy than those who hardly pay any tax (or none at all)?

Why should the absolute maximum council tax payment in Kensington and Chelsea, which has some the most expensive properties in the country, be £2124 when the maximum in my borough is £3300? Is it any wonder there's no money for safe council housing?

Why have Working Tax Credit and Housing Benefit for labourers on the minimum wage been reduced?

The list goes on and on...

The government must be laughing itself silly watching the plebs squabbling over crumbs.