Are these those on squeezed incomes?

So £40k for family of 4 excluding rent/mortgage and childcare -that seems very generous for a minimum.

Whereas we get only just over £14k to be considered sufficient for OAPs?

Both do not include rent whitewave, one of the intractable problems of our day.

Pension Credit currently is only £12,649 pa for a couple so there is a big gap. I make the single persons Pension Credit about 1,079 lower than a MIS too.

'This is based on what members of the public think people need to achieve a decent living standard.'

Where is that from please Ana?

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/how-much-need-earn-happy-money-income-savings-wage-pay-a7826516.html

It's alright - it's at the beginning of the JRT report, so that's one little issue solved. The next is why you have put it on with no comment. What do you think about the public having input into what we need to live on as part of society?

I was just making the point that the figures are just based on a public survey, not a scientific analysis of income/expenditure.

Just to fill out the background a little this is part of the report.

How much is needed to achieve a minimum acceptable standard of living in the United Kingdom today? Since 2008, the Minimum Income Standard (MIS) for the UK has been addressing this question through detailed research into the items ordinary people think should go into a minimum household budget – items ranging from household goods such as toasters and toothpaste, to aspects of social participation such as Christmas presents and weekly social activities. MIS research is supported by expert knowledge on certain physical living requirements, including energy use and nutrition (see ‘MIS in brief’ below).

In order for MIS to remain up to date, it is critical that it adequately captures and reflects both changes in the cost of living, and in the social norms that determine the items included in the calculation of a minimum budget. Annual updates of minimum budgets alternate between those based on new research with the public, and those based only on estimates of price rises, based predominantly on the Retail Prices Index (RPI). Every four years, each budget is wholly ‘rebased’, with groups identifying the required items from scratch. In between each rebase, after two years, the contents of each budget are reviewed by groups to see if any changes need to be made.

The whole report is here

It explains what the MIS is, How is it arrived at, What does it include, To whom does it apply, Where does it apply, How is it related to the poverty line, and Who produced it?

It's a bit of a lengthier read than the media reports but clarifies the research.

Not quite Ana as you will see above. Well worth a read.

The analysis I saw with the £40,000 for a family of 4 included rent but I seem to remember that the amount shown for clothes seemed excessive. DS, part of a family of 4, including 10 year old girl and 7 year old boy, agreed with me on this.

Which analysis where M0nica. This is a properly research piece of work done each year by the Joseph Rowntree Trust. I put the link above. If you click on it and open the full report it will give you more detail. Beware of reading some of the reports in the papers tomorrow without having read the actual report.

What does it include? As set out in the definition above, a minimum is about more than survival alone. However, it covers needs, not wants; necessities, not luxuries – items that the public think people need in order to be part of society. In identifying things that everyone should be able to afford, it does not attempt to specify extra requirements for particular individuals and groups – for example, those needs resulting from living in a remote location or having a disability. So, not everybody who has more than the minimum income can be guaranteed to achieve an acceptable living standard. However, someone falling below the minimum is unlikely to achieve such a standard.

I think it was the i and the amount of rent quoted was £91 a week, mortgages were not mentioned, which may explain an expenditure on home improvement of under £2 a week. While I had no argument with the overall sum. I was surprised at some of the individual parts, some seemed very high, others low

The article was clear that this was. It was not a minimum income defining the band between being in poverty or not but an income for full social inclusion, able to cover all the little pleasures in life from Christmas/birthday presents, and outings to the occasional drink etc.

The report seems to have a very odd mix of spending - fuel, Council Tax and Water Rates cost more than they show. What are personal goods and services at £14 a single person? £47 for social and cultural seems high.

Fuel for a single pensioner works out at £71.41 a month - which is actually a little higher than mine. The Council Tax works out at 68.29 a month and water rates at £25.00 a month. That doesn't seem to be that far out to me. Don't forget you are talking about people on the lowest incomes so not in the most expensive Council Tax band, and in a small home, etc.

I am guessing that personal goods and services might include a trip to the hairdressers or umm - personal goods.

As this has been done as a piece of research I wouldn't have thought GrandmaMoira, that it is going to agree with all our thoughts on these things, but as you think some items are low and some high I imagine the point is that most would agree on the total however they arrive at it.

It's no different a way to decide what is needed to live on than the way the government decides how the CPI is organised. They decide what is changed every year, whether toys or other consumables are included. What food is included.
Cigarettes are included in it. Now they include electronic cigarettes. I've never smoked in my life, so I could challenge that.
Not eaten meat or fish for over forty years, so I could challenge that.
However, Our pension rises are related to the CPI, so I'll not bother.

It's the families I feel sorry for.

It shows how meaningless the idea of a national living wage is.
Perhaps we need a proper living wage, rather than a national pretend living wage.

It is just a misnomer Jen. It is the National Occupational Wage Trial or NOWT. It was never proved that this is what people need to live on they just plucked a figure out to the air.

www.livingwage.org.uk/what-is-the-living-wage

Proper Living wage for all over 18. Even that would not meet the MIS requirements, but it would go a long way towards it.
The LWF has its own basket of goods and services that it deems necessary, and it has a London weighting.
Needless to say, many companies do not pay it as it is voluntary.
However, you could make sure, where possible, you only deal with those companies that do pay it.

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/british-households-squeezed-by-rising-prices-after-brexit-vote

Who is going to say NOWT to do with Brexit?

These are definitely on squeezed incomes. Why isn't £2.50 an hour illegal?

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/uk-workers-poverty-pay-gig-economy-frank-field-report