Remainders &Leavers

Sorry everybody - I pressed "return" too soon! What I was going to say was that I don't think people knew what they were voting for and in all the excitement I think people just saw the amount we give to the EU and not the various amounts given to us by the EU, like farming and fishing subsidies, grants and the jobs etc created by the Horizon2020 science funding programme for Science City York where loads of research is carried out. I have to stop myself thinking about it sometimes as I find it a bit upsetting and think people didn't realise how detrimental it can be to us with regards to things like employment legislation (particularly pay and holidays)if we don't have the EU to fight our corner or enforce our rights! The whole prospect is quite scary but maybe I'll eat my words and everything will be rosy once we're out..... :-/

It's people like that I don't really understand. There's a video of John Harris (of the Guardian) interviewing somebody in South Wales. The interviewee stated he was voting Leave because the EU never did anything for people like him. He was sitting in front of one of those massive blue billboards announcing that regeneration was being funded by the EU, but the irony escaped him.

There are parts of the UK which are the most deprived in Europe and they've been receiving massive amounts of EU funding. The EU was responsible for redistribution of wealth. Lets hope the UK government honours commitments. I must admit I'm not holding my breath - unless you happen to have 10 MPs able to prop up the government .

I voted remain but was really in the minority with my friends and family. However, I did look into the pros and cons and most of the people who live around me who voted out, seemed to think that the week after the result, we'd be out and anybody not "born and bred" here would be out too. I found this attitude quite upsetting as firstly I work for the NHS so a lot of our staff come from abroad and secondly I live in a town which is fairly poor but a lot of its regeneration has been paid for by EU regeneration grants.

My sister-in-law voted remain along with her two student sons. She has given up saying we should just accept Brexit. Granted my statement "Anyone who voted Brexit is racist" might have been OTT but I think it was 80% true and we should not give up when we think Brexit is so very wrong.

Our Vet is a charning German lady who is has been here for 10 year plus she says the Germans are incensed about Brexit and can't understand it. She is thinking of going back to Germany which would be a shame.

I read in the "I" yesterday that 72 pro-brexit MPs had written to the BBC complaining that the BBC was biased against Brexit. What a cheek! The BBC really does its utmost to be balanced and objective. If that appears anti Brexit then so be it.

Depressingly I don't think those people who are passionate about Brexit do not have the same experiences of those who worked with Europeans or lived in Europe. They just believed what they wanted to hear. Now they are angry because it was all lies and nobody likes to be made a fool of. Even worse are those who told the lies as they are nowhere to be seen or heard. They are probably laughing all the way to the bank as they have gained in monetary terms or high ranking jobs because they surely did profit by getting us to leave the EU. It will be a sad day when we leave all for the sake of 52% of the people had their say so we are reminded frequently by politicians. Whereas in reality it was NOT 52% of the population but 52% of the people that voted. It is so easy to manipulate the figures and truth with our wonderful language especially if you repeat a word or phrase enough times people will think it is true.

tegan if that were true I would be skeletal!!

I'm absolutely with you regarding the experts, freyja. I was shouting at the TV when we were given all that nonsense about how the British people were sick of listening to experts. Who else should we have been listening to, for goodness' sake?! DH and I worked in shipping back in the day, and the thought that we as a country might just have voted for a return to the days of complicated and different customs documentation having to be raised for our exports at every single border crossing makes me so angry!

My one consolation about brexit is I'm convincing myself that my constant anger [and it is a pretty huge anger] is burning up calories and is benficial to my waistline. Other than that, apart from being euphoric about the government getting egg on their face over the election [oh, and le Pen failing in France],I've spent over 12 months feeling downright miserable, and it isn't getting much better albeit seeing a small glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.People like Dyson and other brexit supporters seem to be pretty quiet these days and I'm still waiting to hear of these countries that we will now be able to trade with [Canada and Japan perhaps; oh silly me, they're trading with the EU,aren't they?]

That was the point I trying to say to those who voted to leave Maggiemaybe, which was before the EEC (around 1974) Germany, France and other countries we lived in were very harsh to migrant workers like ourselves and is that what we want to go back too? It seems the answer is Yes, because we want stricter rules on immigrants here so there is no reason to expect it to be different for Brits elsewhere.

I also did not mean that 4 year olds were stressed, sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant when they are older. Anyway I hope my point about experts was not lost.

My experience of living in both Germany and the UK has been very different to yours, freyja. Much as I loved my time out there, we certainly came across people who were very hostile to incomers (some of those attitudes going back to WW2). I had to get the British Embassy involved when trying to persuade the authorities that I had the right to work there as an EEC citizen as late as 1974 ("this is not the EEC, this is Germany, we have our own rules!" was one Beamter quote). And our German friends, who've visited us many times since, see the UK as one of the friendliest places they've been to. Also, after many years working in education I've never known a school where the 4 years olds are stressed - most German children are in Kindergarten at that age and their learning is much the same. Still, we can only speak as we find, and you obviously live in a very different area to me if as you say noone can even raise a smile there.

Back to the subject. I'm a remainer, more convinced now than at the time of the referendum. I hate the thought of my little DGC having the freedoms that I enjoyed taken away from them. I have less sympathy with the majority of the 18 to 24 year olds Maisie mentions - if they'd made the effort to get out and vote we may not now be in this position. I too have noticed that many of the Brexit camp seem aggressive when seen on programmes such as Question Time. I'm sure there were valid reasons for voting leave, but we rarely hear them. On a local forum I use, a man more than old enough to know better was talking about "when we get our local industry going again after Brexit". Completely deluded.

The trouble with the British government is that throughout history no matter what the experts say they will do the opposite. Take for example nursery education all the evidence around the world has proven that children benefit more by starting formal education at 6, what do we do we start them at 4. As a consequence the schools are not built to house them and are over crowded. Teachers not trained to cater for needs of 4 year olds,and children are stressed and can't read and write but that doesn't matter because the government needs all parents to work. We were warned by the experts that the NHS can't survive without doctors and nurses from the EU but what did we do we kick them out.
The experts told us that leaving the EU would be disastrous for our jobs and security but what do we do ignore them. The experts told Tony Blair that the war with Iraq is not right, again ignored, now look at the mess. Worst the fire experts and residence told the authorities of the dangers at Grenfell Towers and other high rise flats, they were ignored much to horrendous consequences.What is the point of having experts if they are ignored just because it doesn't suit the individual's and government's selfish ends. It is about time we all stood up and listen to the experts.

I think one of the worst things I have seen recently is the figure that 85% of 18-24 year olds want to keep their freedom of movement. How can older generations have voted to take that away from them? It just seems so wrong.

Here we are all saying how we are still Remainers and always will be and yet the politicians have mainly become turncoats.! As you all say something really nasty has been released in the UK and will be difficult to ever contain.

I find it surprising still how angry many of the Brexiteers are when they are speaking on programmes such as QT - whereas the Remainers tend to be far calmer and speak in more measured tones. Anyone got an explanation?

What is it with the politicians as well - they are all on about democracy when in reality we all know it was the flimsiest of majorities which was obtained purely because of the lies told and fear put into people and rarely are the 48% mentioned let alone those who have changed their mind or those who did not vote and now wish they had!

We did at least know what life was like IN the EU - and history tells us what it was like before we joined. People who cannot remember what it was like before or those who were too young will be in for a few surprises when rights the EU have given them are gradually removed. The whole thing is still just so sickening.

Plus bloody expensive. Have you worked out how much private health will cost you? We have and it would be impossible as well as not being covered for cancer and heart.

As a remainer I believed the experts, because what is the point of an expert if they don't know what they are talking about. I too will never accept the decision. Those that voted leave have ruined the future for my children. I am extremely sad about that. All this was done to make the rich richer. When we lose the NHS because of it it will be a sad, sad day.

I think what people are forgetting is that all of us had a vote in the EU parliament and our MEPs, who represented us and gave us the opportunity to have our say. How many of us ( especially those over 55) bother to vote for their MEP over the last 40 years? Not many I shouldn't wonder because how else did we end up with MEPs like Nigel Farage, who systematically spent his years as MEP misrepresenting us and trying to get us out of the EU, whilst taking his MEP salary. Farage was so rude and disrespectful to his EU peers, it wouldn't surprise me if they were glad to see the back of him. So it is too late to complain now when the horse has bolted and sadly we have to live with the consequence.

As even if we remain our reputation has been severely damaged and could take generations to repair.

You are not supposed to suggest that Leavers are racist, but a great many of them are. They dislike anyone not just like them. We need immigrants to keep this country running, most of our social services that haven't collapsed already will be finished without them.
The only other argument I hear is that of 'sovereignity', which no-one seems to be able to define except to whinge about Brussels bureaucrats, which we are of course part of, it is how the flipping thing works!
We will end up poorer and much worse off, if this madness cannot be stopped

I think the referendum brought out everything that is bad about the UK. The xenophobia so rife was manifest in the vote. It is a national disgrace, and something that should make us hang our heads in shame.

So sorry to read of your bad experiences Freya, & happy we are sharing gransspace on a ( mostly?) friendly forum . I keep reminding my mum that the 'English' invaded & imposed our beliefs on many countries in bygone times it doesn't go down to well & of course we were at one time joined by land , I guess humans are just terratorial

I voted to remain and proud of it. I lived in Europe for over 20 years with my husband who worked for Rolls Royce. We were treated with kindness and respect. I was in Germany when Britain voted to go into the EU in the 1970s. Life changed for us 'immigrants' immediately. We were no longer forced to have medicals, police visits, stopped in the streets to pay fines or to show passports and needed special car and medical insurances. Yes we still had to have ID but was never asked to provide it.
Our problem was when we returned to England. Our German car was targeted, children bullied at school because we were seen as European not English. We have been here 15 years and no one can even raise a smile. Personally I don't know why an 'immigrant' wants to come here it is the most unfriendly place I have ever lived in. Now it is even worse and we should be careful what we wish for as we get what we deserve in the end don't we.

I Am a passionate Remainer and find it so difficult almost impossible to talk to leavers One of my school friends is a conservative through and through and ran around with Leave posters begging people to put them up in their windows before the dreaded deed She has always seemed a gentle, intelligent, compassionate person but her whole reasons were built on immigration and she says in her gentle voice ' but we are only a small island we can't take any more people in' but of course that agument wouldn't be if it was a well off white person knocking at her door The irritating thing is she is half French her mum came over to marry her English Dad and live in a 'mansion' by the river she taught French in my school my friend still has a holiday home in France I have lunch once a month with my school friends and I have to make a concerted effort to sit at the other end of the table as I can't bear the thought of that subject coming up I just couldn't ignore it
I will NEVER give in and accept the 'will of the people '
I still have a tiny feeling it won't happen My daughter a fervent remainer too says
I m just being over optimistic

My wife keeps telling me to get a life and move on. We both voted REMAIN because we had seen the EU first hand on educational visits to Brussels. Some of our friends and relatives did vote LEAVE. I feel so strongly that BREXIT is a disaster for the country that to simply stop arguing and accept the "Will of the People" is betraying our future.

Most of the dire predictions mentioned by the Remain Campaign have been shown to be true. Many of the lies told by the Leave campaign have been proven as lies.

Brexiteers do appear to be getting increasingly aggressive when challenged on programmes like question time. They often just say "I voted Leave and have not changed my mind" what they are reluctant to say is why they voted Leave. Remainers on the other hands are more often prepared articulate their views.

The perilous situation the Nation finds itself in now when you look at it objectively is largely down to bad government, that can be traced back to the 1950's, even perhaps the 1930's. That is not the fault of the EU but our own system. We have been complacent wallowing in the glories of the past and failing to adjust to circumstances.

Britain did start the Industrial Revolution and was the Top Nation for many years, other nations saw that and "Adapted, Imitated and Improved" while we just let them overtake us instead of doing likewise. I do believe the message has at last got through but the seed change is will take time to grow.

I was wondering which thread to post this on:

Start

I expected, by now, to be coming round to the idea of Brexit. A lot of my friends were Outers – clever folk with whom I agree on much else. Prior to June 23, 2016, I would have described myself as a Eurosceptic Remainer, my position perhaps best summed up as: the only thing worse than being a member of the European Union would be not being a member of the European Union. Cumbersome and frustrating as the institution was, the benefits made belonging worthwhile. The world consists of shades of grey.

I’ve been wrong before – like many in my trade, too often for comfort recently – and after the referendum result took some heart from the fact that good people with the UK’s best interests at heart and a decent track record had backed Brexit. I had no desire to see Britain founder simply to provide people like me with an “I told you so” moment.

But, Brexiteers and Remainers together, let’s admit the bleedin’ obvious: it’s not going well, is it? Let’s not pretend we’re cruising towards a generous “have cake and eat it” deal with the EU. Don’t claim the Government has its act together, that ministers have a cunning plan, or that they have a shared plan – or that they even have a plan.

More.......

It, of course, remains highly likely we’ll leave, regardless of the consequences. But in a healthier climate, with strong moderate leaders and political parties that made some kind of 21st century ideological sense, you could see how we might decide to adjust our destination in light of the evidence.

End

capx.co/lets-face-it-were-botching-brexit/

So true Luckygirl, it's all such a mess now

lucky oh how right you are. And the worse travesty is that the UK may well end up for worse as a result.