Remainders &Leavers

She wrapped herself in the EU flag for her speech this year though so I think we may know where her sympathies lie!!!!

Well, whatever he said wouldn't counteract the sort of front page lies that the gutter press were producing on a daily basis. I still can't get over the front page declaration that 'the queen is in favour of brexit' that I saw a day or so prior to the vote.

I didn't understand why Cameron didn't make more of what he'd achieved from the negotiations either. Why didn't he stand up and shout about it? He's a PR man after all and should have realised that the message hadn't got through to the public.

I did read that somewhere at the time and could not understand why it did not get more publicity - or why he was deemed to have failed - more lies really. Of course it was removed from the table after the referendum.

I don't think anyone really knew exactly what Cameron got from the negotiations. The press just shouted "Failed" and everyone took their word for it. I was quite surprised when I read the Hansard record for the day he announced them in Parliament

Start

We have not just permanently protected the pound and our right to keep it, but ensured that we cannot be discriminated against. Responsibility for supervising the financial stability of the UK will always remain in the hands of the Bank of England. We have ensured that British taxpayers will never be made to bail out countries in the eurozone. We have made sure that the eurozone cannot act as a bloc to undermine the integrity of the free trade single market and we have guaranteed British business will never face any discrimination for being outside the eurozone. So, for example, our financial services firms—our No. 1 services export, employing over a million people—can never be forced to relocate inside the eurozone if they want to undertake complex trades in euros, just because they are based in the UK.

These protections are not just set out in a legally binding agreement. All 28 member states were also clear that the treaties would be changed to incorporate the protections for the UK as an economy inside the EU but outside the eurozone. We also agreed a new mechanism to enable non-eurozone countries to raise issues of concern, and we won the battle to ensure that this could be triggered by one country alone.

We have secured commitments to complete trade and investment agreements with the fastest growing and most dynamic economies around the world, including the USA, Japan and China, as well as our Commonwealth allies India, New Zealand and Australia. These deals could add billions of pounds and thousands of jobs to our economy every year. And, of course, they build on the deals we already have with 53 countries around the world through which Britain has benefited from the negotiating muscle that comes from being part of the world’s largest trading bloc.

...we agreed there will now be targets to cut the total burden of EU regulation on business. This builds on the progress we have already made, with the Commission already cutting the number of new initiatives by 80%. It means that the cost of EU red tape will be going down, not up.

...we have secured new powers against criminals from other countries, including powers to stop them coming here in the first place, and powers to deport them if they are already here. We agreed longer re-entry bans for fraudsters and people who collude in sham marriages, and an end to the frankly ridiculous situation where EU nationals can avoid British immigration rules when bringing their families from outside the EU.

This agreement broke new ground, with the European Council agreeing to reverse decisions from the European Court of Justice. We have also secured a breakthrough agreement for Britain to reduce the unnatural draw that our benefits system exerts across Europe. We have already made sure that EU migrants cannot claim the new unemployment benefit, universal credit, while looking for work. Those coming from the EU who have not found work within six months can now be required to leave. At this Council, we agreed that EU migrants working in Britain can be prevented from sending child benefit home at UK rates. This will apply first to new claimants, and then to existing claimants from the start of 2020.

We also established a new emergency brake so that EU migrants will have to wait four years until they have full access to our benefits.

Once activated, the emergency brake will be in place for seven years. If it begins next year, it will still be operating in 2024 and there will be people who will not get full benefits until 2028.

End

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/cm160222/debtext/160222-0001.htm

I have the feeling this was all planned by the Eton Boys, the same group that destroyed the LDs and the independent referendum in Scotland, probably learnt their tactics at their public school. Ever since the entry to the EU, right from the start the Tories have wanted out even before the ink dried. Throughout the decades we have heard it, time and time again. It was not until NF started up the debate and became a threat to the Tories that something had to be done, because if we were going to leave it will be the Tories and not UKIP who will take the credit and glory. DC had bought his pig farm in Oxfordshire, worth millions, signed for it in the same week as the referendum but before the results were out. That is why he left the country high and dry because he saw the writing on the wall. Boris Johnson was promised the PM's job if he went against DC to make it look respectable to leave the EU. His plans were scabbard by Micheal Gould because he was persuaded by his wife, who worked for Rupert Murdoch, that he deserved to be PM because he led the Brexit campaign and so it goes on. Hang on a minute is this some fantastic movie we are watching,sounds like 'Dallas' keeping us in suspense to the very end and where only history will tell the real story.

The fact that the Uk has instigated many EU ideas or laws has been mentioned over the months the but many facts are easily forgotten.

When you look at that list and also see the extra leeway they agreed to with Cameron it is no wonder everyone thinks the Brits are bonkers!

What I can't get over, Welshwife is the fact that it was Britain who initiated or pushed for all those things which were used against the EU in the Leave campaign.

And thanks for posting about Greece; I was just about to do it myself, same points...

Though, WRT Greece, I don't think the 'austerity' budget they were forced to implement has helped. It's particularly ironic that austerity policies are now rapidly going out of fashion..

Interestingmaizie when you see it in an orderly manner - brings it into fo as properly.

The Greeks were desperate to join the EU and were allowed in and needed to accept the EURO - that has been their problem. Figures were 'adjusted' to get over the EU rules to allow them to join. They could not just continue to receive EU money and the situation not improve.

There were mistakes made and the joining of Greece is probably one of the biggest - naturally Greek politicians were annoyed at the events. Their economy was very poor before joining and the drachma not great.

A majority of countries which have joined the EU have done well - it made a spectacular difference to Eire - the farmers had never had it so good but many of the farmers abused the system - and that was ultimately not good.

Many companies which do not pay correct tax plus people like newspaper owners want to leave because they can manipulate many of the U.K. Politicians for their own ends and that is far more difficult to do with the EU - Murdoch has actually admitted that.

So you approve of the EU ruining Greece's economy, and now threatening Italy? Well these countries have to be brought back into line and others cowed that's true, so I suppose the end justifies the means! As for refugees? Well they must get on with that and just mange as best they can so long as the EU ship and all at the helm sail on unimpeded nothing else matters.

Interesting twitter thread

twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/884474494512975872

It's very long but worth reading.

"Steve Analyst‏
@EmporersNewC

1. Hello, United Kingdom, it’s the United States of America here, and we need to talk."

Unlike Greece we don't need the EU to ruin our economy; we seem to be quite capable of doing it all by ourselves#that'llshow'em!

Very probably! All politicians seem no be tarred with the same brush. However, our government did help Eire when that country found itself in financial difficulties, unlike the EU's attitude towards Greece!! As one of that country's politicians said not so long ago, that we are dealing with intransigent, bullies, and ain't that the truth.

In fact when I read your description I thought it was of the Tory party running the UK and how they behave in the H o C.!

Have you ever listened to a debate in the EU?

There are too many diverse people and governments for it to be as you describe.

We all have our own opinions Welshwife. My observation of the EU is that it is rich man's club, be it banking, academia, big business. For me it is run by arrogant bullies, who treat people less fortunate than themselves with barely disguised contempt. I never ever thought that I would for the second time in my life see desperate people the wrong side of a razor sharp fence! I wonder where they are now courtesy of the all caring EU?! Now it's Italy's turn! Will the EU help? have they a plan? Do they care? So long as it doesn't interfere with their gilded lives, I very much doubt it very much.

That is anot her misconceptionNiggly the UK has NEVER been run by Brussels! They only deal with European things and get joint trade deals which are beneficial to all countries. The EU has been used as a useful scapegoat for years and now the UK Govt are reaping the benefit(!) of those lies

The U.K. Has been responsible for domestic laws and budgets and UK taxes and benefit rules etc - as is every other EU country responsible for their own.

David Cameron was very much caught on the wrong foot by the result of the referendum and had no plan B ready. That is why he cut and run and the Tory party had no leader with authority for a couple of months till Thersa May picked up the poisoned chalice.

I should have abstained!!!

What I really can't understand is that the H of C actually agreed that the result would be first past the post!! how arrogant or plain stupid was that!! D.C. announced that whatever the result he would abide by it and see it through, he would trigger article 50 the next day! an emergency budget. D.C. fled the scene, the chancellor, floundered about, no one knew what to do! Frankly, I think we've been run by the EU for so long that all our politicians are simply unable to govern any more, and are terrified of making the simplest of decisions, a bit like thirty something children who finally leave home and simply can't manage, having never had to! Regretfully I feel that we are as a country better to 'hang onto nurse etc', very disappointing!

I still have see nothing positive about leaving - all the things which are happening just make me more convinced we should remain within the EU?

NZ. and Australia have both come out saying the EU will come before UK in any trade deals and Japan has already shown it is the case with them.

How many jobs do we need to see disappear before people realise the real implications of leaving the EU

I know many people who abstain or voted to leave for exactly the reason you gave nigglynellie. The referendum was a total disgrace, with facts and figures exaggerated,experts on both sides ignored. How on earth did we let them get away with such a flimsy margin of 4%. Nigel Farage stated that if the vote was for remain he will except nothing but 60% majority. So again this referendum has raised more questions then answers. Some how we must get a proper debate going, with all the pros and cons and only until we all sure of the facts we should have a 2nd vote. The trouble is that sensible idea is for dreamers of a true leader and all parties agreeing but all we are left with is pie in the sky.

I so nearly abstained right up to the point of placing that X as I felt it was a question that the majority of people including me hadn't enough understanding of and one that we shouldn't have been asked. However I felt I should vote and bearing in mind my intense dislike for the EU, migrant crises so badly handled, their treatment of Greece which was nothing short of humiliation for that poor country, worries over mutterings about Turkey, now long forgotten of course, but along then seemingly relevant, those and other issues I reluctantly voted to leave. I now wish I had gone with my first instincts to abstain and if asked a second time that is exactly what I and my family would do.

I do hope that if (fingers crossed) there is a second vote, there will be some rules (agreed across parties) for required minimum turnout and margin between remain/leave.

I read the letter and agree, so signed and sent then forward to all I know including leavers; just in case of change of mind.
I agree with Whitewave, Mark Twain is so good. The 63% I presume is the 48% of the voters who voted remain and half the population who did not vote that is 15% of don't know. The other 15% are those that don't know but would have probably voted leave, all speculative. The problem is that the leavers took the 30% (I thought it was actually 28%) of don't knows as being said that they ere for leaving and that is how they made up the winner number of 52%. Although my maths is not brilliant but I hope you get my drift. The real problem was that there was no space for the don't knows. There was only a YES or NO again not very democratic but if we hear this word enough will surely think it is.