Surprising proposed changes to gender identification legislation

The smear test was a routine one, the assault had happened previously, when she was younger, but she still suffers the effects to this day, sadly,

I have 100% belief in my friend. I'm obviously not going to put any more detail here, I've probably said too much anyway, so it's entirely your decision what you believe, or otherwise.

There's still so much wrong with your story. Victims of sexual assault were very unlikely to have a smear test, so much has improved to make it less stressful for them. They are encouraged to have another person with them, they are booked with double appointments, so there's no hurry. Some are even able to perform the smear themselves and are guided through the process by a doctor/nurse. There is no way 'someone off sick' would have created the story you posted. No way.
I haven't even started on your description of the complaints process, and I'm not going to bother.
Anyone in the UK who has used the NHS will find your story implausible. It has more in common with a Monty Python sketch, except they're funny.

I don't live in England so I'm not au fait with GP surgery set-ups, Primrose. It may have been a clinic affiliated to the GP surgery or however it works in London. I know it's a busy area with many people people on the books so the abuse aspect may have slipped through the net or someone was off sick, who knows?

The nurse was absolutely a person who looked 100% a man but said they were a woman. The complaint was that the nurse would not initially back off when the friend said she had requested a female nurse and informed friend that they were indeed a female nurse. Patients are entitled to refuse treatment from anyone but this person would not at first accept that. It was very intimidating for my friend and caused her to have serious flashbacks of her previous traumas.

For those of us in the UK are you also aware that the notorious murderer Ian Huntley, imprisoned for killing two young girls and with a long history of sexual assaults against girls and women, now says he 'identifies' as a woman and wishes to be known as Lianne.
Presumably with the longer term aim of being transferred to a women's prison. In what universe is this ever acceptable?

SueDonim If it is 100% true then the GP surgery is at fault, not the person undergoing gender reassignment.

The surgery did not have to use this nurse for a smear. They chose to employ the nurse. They chose to use her to perform a smear on a victim of sexual abuse. The complaint would be towards the GP practice, not the nurse! If she was then fired because of the complaint of your friend, she was unfairly dismissed. I mean, what was her complaint? The nurse looked like a man? Come on.

GrumpyOldBat I think you've made some interesting arguments. Although I can't see the dystopian future painted by some of the posts on this thread, I do think you have a point about some trans activists.

This is more fundamental than that. Sex, you know, biological reality, is real. There are male and female humans with distinct physical, hormonal and genetic characteristics. 'Gender' is a variable, wholly socially constructed set of visual and behavioural expectations designed to ensure social compliance, producing toxic stereotypes.

The self-identifying trans-activist brigade do not recognise biological reality and prefer to demand that the only real women are men who act out the stereotypes of femininity. I get paid less than male colleagues because i am a biological female not because I feel feminine and wear pink. I am labelled with perjorative terms and threatened with violence for saying that women are adult human females and that a penis is a male organ. I am called 'cis-scum' and 'TERF bitch' because I tell the truth.

Changing the law so a man, any man, can say 'I am female' and to criminalise those who point out the biological reality and say 'no you are not' is my idea of a dystopian future arriving with a bang.

I do not want to see vulnerable women put at risk as the result of the deeply ingrained misogyny of the trans-activists who scream for self-identification. If this becomes law, women will lose an awful lot, if not all, of their protected spaces and legal protections, and our daughters and their daughters will be the worse off for it.

And I have yet to hear a firm definition of 'woman' from any trans-activist - so when the law is drafted, are they going to say 'woman' means whatever any trans person says it is whenever they say it?

It's absolutely 100% true, I promise you. The surgery had had misgivings about this nurse and were actually glad that my friend made an official complaint because they had had their hands tied until.

It wasn't all to do with the person's look, their manner and actions also figured plus their refusal to take no for an answer.

One of my children is a trainee doctor and one of the things drummed into them is that patients have the absolute right to refuse treatment from anyone and they do not have to provide a reason.

I'd care more about how good a photographer or counsellor she was than how much facial hair she has.

I'm rather concerned about the 'hairy deep voiced nurse' working in London though. Something doesn't sit right with me about the story. I cannot imagine a GP surgery where this nurse would be considered appropriate to perform a smear test on a sexual abuse victim who has asked for a female nurse. The GP would be aware of the history of their patient.

Alex Drummond is legally a woman under current legislation. No surgery, no hormones, full beard. He's a counsellor - how would you feel if you asked for a woman and got him? And that's with the supposedly onerous system that's much too difficult and humiliating

I'm watching a video of Danielle putting it all into context. I'd feel safe sharing a changing room etc with her

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qUY5CV9jjM

Primrose, it was in London, within the past year.

Try that again www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-want-widen-bandwidth-gender-9686747

Oh Primrose that's what I used to think too! But Danielle Muscato (Canada) and Alex Drummond (Wales) have shown us the error of our ways!

Alex - [[http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-want-widen-bandwidth-gender-9686747[[

Danielle - well, easier just to attach an image.

Yes, I thought so too FarNorth. Helen described her youth and the pressures they felt very movingly, I really felt for them.

SueDonim Which country was that in? It's unusual for men who identify as women to be so stereotypically masculine!

That article from Helen Highwater puts it very well, Jinty44.

Men who commit crimes against women will do so anyway and I don't think they will see this as an opportunity to infiltrate women only areas.

You don't think so? Why wouldn't they? They take every other opportunity they can.

At least one of those things has happened already. A friend who had previously been sexually assaulted requested a female nurse conduct her smear test. A very tall, deep-voiced person with a beard and hairy arms informed my friend that they were the female nurse and would be doing the test.

My friend pretty much said 'Over my dead body,' and made a formal complaint, which was upheld by the health authority.

I agree with Riverwalk - just stating that you are of a different gender should not trigger the ability to re-register in that gender. If you have fully transitioned, then it should be possible.

Oriel I don't view transgender people negatively, but I do view the transactivists very negatively. I was completely blind to the whole shebang until recently, then a few things I read made me sit up and pay attention.

I don't know why you think everything will be ironed out. On the one side there is a lobbying group pushing their agenda, and on the other - well a few people keen to appear oh-so-progressive bending the knee to the lobbyists and the vast majority not really paying attention but wanting to be nice to people who are unhappy. Anybody who points out a conflict of interests is denounced as a bigot. It hardly lends itself to confidence in the outcome.

As for refuges - you really think that traumatised women who have been abused so badly they've had to seek refuge will not be stressed out sharing a room with a physically intact male? I'm guessing you've had no dealings with abused women.

Canada, which is one of the countries mentioned earlier in the thread, is a case in point. The woman in this news article was expected to share a room with a male globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/ and was asked to leave when she wouldn't. And yes, some men do see it as an opportunity to infiltrate, as you put it - www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault and have been jailed for it.There's also Vancouver Rape Relief, a charity that supported rape victims, dragged through the court for 12 years by a transwoman because they wouldn't train her as a rape counsellor. The money they had to spend on that could have been better spent on rape victims. www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/

If you want to read up a bit, a good place to start is an article written by a transwoman who writes under the pseudonym Helen Highwater. I found it thoughtful and offering an insight into the experience of being transgender. genderapostates.com/trans-women-are-women-is-a-lie/

I'm in the UK Jinty, I guess the church want to make everyone feel included by providing a separate toilet should people wish to use it. I can't imagine it being made mandatory that a transgender person must use it.

Of course things are in the early stage as far as legislation goes but I think it will follow that everything concerning facilities will be ironed out.

Men are everywhere at the moment - by far and away we all co-exist together very well. There's good and bad in both sexes. Men who commit crimes against women will do so anyway and I don't think they will see this as an opportunity to infiltrate women only areas.

I also can't see why a women's refuge or rape crisis centre would be seen being at risk either. People in those centres have been attacked by a particular male (or female) not by every male in existence.

I don't understand why transgender people are being viewed so negatively by some people here.

oriel your suggestions of a third space are sensible, but as others have said, that's not what's being proposed.

Let's be really clear - the government is about to implement legislation that any man at any time can say "I identify as a woman" and legally he will be. Don't want him in the showers at your swimming pool or on your hospital ward? Too bad. Question a man coming into the ladies loos? You could be committing a hate crime. Request a female healthcare professional and a strapping bloke comes in? If you refuse to be treated by him, your surgery could remove you as though you had refused care from a black nurse and were racist. Not to mention the impact on women's refuges and places like rape crisis centres.

These are real scenarios. I for one don't want them and will be writing to my MP to ask how he proposes to safeguard the 50% of his consistuents who are adversely impacted by this so that .03% of the population can feel included.

LeslieKnope I agree with your comment about feeling female. What does that even mean? Do all women feel the same? No one has yet defined what 'feeling female' is, that I know of.

"You seem to cite showers and changing areas as being your main concern. Surely these are areas which can be easily sorted out by simply having a transgender changing room/shower room."
Well that might work if the transgender individuals agreed to self-segregate. But that;s not going to happen, is it? They will wither not wish to draw attention to themselves, or they will be insulted at not being 'allowed' to use the facilities they believe they are entitled to.

"My father in law is involved with the building of a new church and they will have three separate gender toilets, one specifically for transgender. This building is being built now - not proposed in the future."
What country are you in? Because I'm pretty sure that this would fall foul of discrimination law in the UK - if not now, certainly if/when 'gender identity' becomes a protected characteristic (as this bill proposes).

"Interesting point regarding the competitive sport aspect. I would think that testing would be required for this?"
Again, if gender identity becomes a protected characteristic, the sporting authorities could be sued for discrimination. As it is, under International Olympic Committee allows transwomen to have testosterone levels three times higher than a born woman (testosterone is used in doping) and are not required to have surgery. www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

"Surely though it would be entirely reasonable for venues such as sports facilities to have separate showering areas for those who identify as female but haven't had surgery?"
Yes it would be reasonable. But again, if gender identity becomes a protected characteristic, the venues could be sued for discrimination.

FarNorth OK, I hadn't realised that such things still existed.

Surely though it would be entirely reasonable for venues such as sports facilities to have separate showering areas for those who identify as female but haven't had surgery?