Britain's National Debt - equivalent to £65K per household

Jane43 There are fabulous training courses for free on the internet, from universities and colleges around the world. It's never been easier to learn such a wide variety of subjects from home, especially in areas like IT.

How can our economy be 'broken' when 3 members of the Rochdale child grooming gang have been granted legal aid to fight deportation when they have finished their sentences?

One of the many downsides to constantly cutting public spending is the loss of the multiplier effect. The money paid to NHS staff, emergency services, education staff is re-spent and goes round the economy again and again (3.5 times?), thus affecting a lot more people's incomes.
Another is the lack of people who wish to train to join these groups, or once trained, stay. It takes a long time to train and develop medical staff, teachers etc. Services are so understaffed now that newbies to these industries are not being given the quality initial experiences that make them want to stay. E.g. there are more qualified teachers not teaching under 60yo than there are in schools.

Is Britain broken? Yes. But the money is the least of it. Our national identity has been eroded...by envious others both within and without.
There, I've said it.

@ Hm999

The money paid to NHS staff, emergency services, education staff is re-spent and goes round the economy again and again (3.5 times?), thus affecting a lot more people's incomes.

It doesn't matter how often you, I or anyone else points this out it is utterly ignored by most posters because it doesn't fit the popular narrative which portrays spending on the public sector as pouring money into a black hole, after which it is never seen again.

I'd see public sector spending as an important contribution to keeping the UK economy afloat.

Oh, and persuading people to ditch the 'household economy' model of national expenditure.

I totally agree that the 'household economy' model is unhelpful. Public sector spending isn't pouring money into a black hole, it's paying for public sector jobs.
However, the money used comes from taxation or debt. That's why, when countries like Greece could no longer sell their government bonds, the teachers / civil servants etc were not paid.
And as for it circulating 3.5 times - what happens to it then? Sounds very dodgy to me!
There's no magic bullet with public sector spending.

"Britain was once the wealthiest country in the world yet it has been lurching from crisis to crisis since the 1960's" a true statement but let's not forget that we used to have the British Empire, when we stripped other countries of their national resources, including people with our slave trade. There are other things just as important to a country other than it's wealth; it's humanity for one.

Our country has been beset by many problems throughout it's history and yet we're still here. I don't believe that we as a country are broken, grossly divided yes, but not broken and if we want to fix the problems we're currently facing we have to work together.

I don't believe that public spending is pouring money into a black hole but like all expenditure it has to be properly managed.

Isn't Greece's fall from prosperity to poverty as much to do with it's EU membership as anything else?

it's paying for public sector jobs.

It is also paying for private sector goods and services. I can't think of anything, medicines, equipment, food, cleaning materials, vehicles, fuel etc. which is produced by a publicly owned company. and that's just the NHS.

Nor are the goods and services bought with public sector wages. It's all going to private sector business.

And as for it circulating 3.5 times - what happens to it then?

Perhaps you should then follow it through the private sector companies that receive it. I wonder if a goodly chunk paid to the large businesses disappears into offshore tax havens, either directly or by way of dividends to shareholders.

Tax is a way that government can recoup the money spent on public services; both tax avoidance and tax evasion shrink the receipts.

The official HMRC figures estimate revenues lost through evasion/avoidance at about £35 billion. Experts claim that it is probably much higher

www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/20/experts-dismiss-hmrcs-shrinking-tax-gap-estimate

There is a broader picture too. People are living longer and the population has increased. The fact is that it's difficult to sustain all the benefits we enjoyed in the 60s and 70s when so many people need social care now. Many more young people are going to University these days and Britain's large manufacturing industries that provided apprenticeships for many young people have long gone. Things have changed dramatically since our generation was young. The we worried about other things like the Irish question and Trades Unions but the UK was certainly a land of opportunity and growth.

Isn't Greece's fall from prosperity to poverty as much to do with it's EU membership as anything else?

I'm frequently being told that it's because they won't pay their taxes!

What is certain is that they fiddled their way into joining the Euro (with massaged figures) and it's come back to bite them. They have very little control over things like exchange rates and are subject to EU control over their economic strategy.

That's why not being in the eurozone has been advantageous for the UK; we have a sovereign currency (i.e we're in complete control of it) and complete control of our economic policy.

"The money paid to NHS staff, emergency services, education staff is re-spent and goes round the economy again and again (3.5 times?), thus affecting a lot more people's incomes.

It doesn't matter how often you, I or anyone else points this out it is utterly ignored by most posters because it doesn't fit the popular narrative which portrays spending on the public sector as pouring money into a black hole, after which it is never seen again."

In the context of the posts, we were talking about government spending on public sector jobs, not spending absolute. Yes, some money goes to the private sector. We all know that. About £10 billion went to the 'top 20 suppliers' in total in 2013 according to the Guardian.

The biggest spend is pensions. £160 billion this year.

These posts always get bogged down in detail. It's so frustrating.

Don't pensioners spend anything, either? Are they a big black hole?

These posts always get bogged down in detail. It's so frustrating.

You'd just like a series of soundbite, then?

I'm sure many would agree with you but the devil is in the detail...

Maizie Where have I said anything about a big black hole or public sector spending is bad. It feels like you just want an argument and you're trying to create one.
I don't want sound bites at all, please don't make assumptions then challenge me on them. Surely there's more to a debate than a choice between sound bite or detail.

do stop taking my comments personally, Primroses. Nobody has actually said 'a big black hole'but they are talking about public spending as if that's what happens to the money.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by a discussion. In my book it is a conversation about a topic in which people put forward different points of view and back up their points with evidence if necessary. I note that you are not averse to doing this.

Railman so agree. We have had lazy governments who have let the multi nationals take over so they can keep the unemployment figures down and throw the majority of the population crumbs. If companies like Costa went, we would have lovely independents take over. The landlords would have to keep rents down to give an example. It seems some professions don't realise how some are struggling and still charge exorbitant prices. Eg lawyers and the law are now for the rich which I think is appalling.

To comment on the public sector salaries and going back into the economy. That's true but it's an ever decreasing circle of money. As it flies out the country on imports, holidays etc.

Come on everyone, where's the old Dunkirk spirit? We're never better when things look grim, and don't be scare mongered into thinking the world is going to end. We are infinitely better off than many and where's the economic cliff we were to fall off? There ARE huge opportunities and I for one post brexit am looking forward to reconnecting with our Commonwealth cousins and trading with the world. Unashamedly a half full glass kind of gal, if we hadn't tightened our belts we would be in a far worse position.

Dunkirk 'spirit' was actually about us escaping from what had been a gross miscalculation on our part#justsaying

To comment on the public sector salaries and going back into the economy. That's true but it's an ever decreasing circle of money. As it flies out the country on imports, holidays etc.

So it does, but then so does private sector employee's pay. And, of course, many of our utilities and manufacturing companies are owned or part owned by foreign companies so off their profits (made with our money) go abroad.

I completely agree that our economy needs re-balancing; we need to be producing and exporting more; we need, at the very least, to be taxing profits made by multi-national companies (like Amazon, Google etc) in this country (funnily enough, an EU directive aiming to do this comes into force in March 1919, just when we might be leaving the EU), we should be encouraging investment in industry and we should be investing in the infrastructure needed to attract businesses to all parts of the UK, not just London (like dualling the A1 from Newcastle to Edinburgh...).

I do appreciate that we need all that, but in the meantime, spending on the public sector is helping to keep the economy afloat and the last thing we should be doing is cutting back on it. There seems to be little point in cutting back as the money 'saved' isn't going to be invested elsewhere, is it?

I wish there was a 'Like' button for posts, Tegan

peaches; But we STILL trade with the rest of the world; why is there this misconception that we only trade with Europe?

You know what Maizie. I am worried that our government is not up to the task of putting in place ways of stimulating our economy and re balancing, as you say. Investing in us and our businesses. i am fortunate to not have to worry about me but it's our children and grandchildren. Isn't it?

I find these threads very enlightening, thanks for all the links and informed discussion, MaizieD and others who seem much more on the ball on these matters than I am.

It seems to me that Primrose's remark that the 'household economy' model is unhelpful. Public sector spending isn't pouring money into a black hole, it's paying for public sector jobs is on the money, excuse the pun.

Though I may not be au fait with all the arguments for or against this or that, I do expect HMG to have a handle on it at all times. That's what they're paid for, imo.

I have not read every thread so apologies if I am repeating what has been said already.
It is hard to compare with other countries because there are different ways of measuring it, also looking on the Internet the figures seem to vary a lot, but it does appear that our debt is one of the worst in the world. It might make us question why we spend money on cegrtain things - for example on our regional news there was something about a program for teaching English to EU immigrants - why don't they learn before they come here? (It is a different case with refugees of course) and generally there is a lot of waste and unnecessary expenditure which no one has the guts to tackle. Apart from that, most countries have huge debts - the whole economic system is like a house of cards - everyone is afraid to rock the boat as we would all suffer if one goes down. However it can't go on for ever, I think a total collapse sooner or later is inevitable. Everyone knows this but is afraid of the consequences, so they are hanging on for dear life.

Peaches: Dunkirk was a very different situation to the one we now face. Then we were on the verge of an invasion. Also there aren't that many Commonwealth countries left because most of them have become independent. Don't kid yourself - Great Britain aint 'Great' and hasn't been for a long time.....