Jews and racism

I'd be happy for you to keep goin.g tricia and I could learn more please

Thanks Tricia.

It's not that we are not prepare to condemn them Primrose, I would be happy to do that. It is that we only have one, possibly biased, source as to whether it actually happened.

Thank you Tricia. We should know so much more about the rest of the world but I definitely have my limitations.

ps it's much smaller than England:
iris.org.il/sizemaps/britain.htm

Grace'sGran - if you want to understand Zionism you need to read the history of the Jews going back several centuries. There's no easy answer.
And the same if you want to understand the conflicts within the various Arab tribes and nations.
In my view, it all stems from the 2 sons of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. Who was the firstborn and what rights does each have?
I don't think the current govt. of Israel is dominantly Zionist. Israel is a tiny country, not much bigger than England, and feels constantly threatened by the surrounding powerful Arab countries. So feels the need to defend itself.

What do you think about two unions affiliating to the JLM?

It's interesting that no one feels able to condemn the anti-Semitic chants.
Much easier to say
'I was talking about something else'
'You've got your arguments backwards'

Primrose your post is spot on.?
Rather than relying on GN for information on Zionism if anybody wants a detailed answer then look it up, easy to do these days.

Just to repeat. I want a more detailed explanation and I am not a Labour Party member. Just saying as people seem to like to categorise others.

Primrose you seem to have got your arguments backwards way on (not for the first time).

Haven't two unions affiliated to the JLM, just yesterday?

primrose I have no idea if anyone has posted whether it is anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, i dont keep track of every post (no time) That isn't what I said.

I am also in no position to talk about what went on at the fringe of the Labour Party Conference as I wasn't there.

But what I am trying to do is separate between what is Zionism, the state of Israel and the Jewish faith. I am interested in the ways Zionism is used in a perjoritive way. Hoping someone can enlighten me.

It's always interesting to see how we never need these discussions about 'is it OK to criticise Saudi Arabia or is that Islamophobic'.

I don't think anyone has posted that it is anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government - post a link ww to the sort of thing you mean. There have been multiple posts saying it's not anti-Semitic.

Being stuck and in need of enlightenment is not a good place to be.

How about the Labour Party members chanting 'throw them out' referring to the Jewish Labour movement? Mad as a box of frogs or racist or anti-semitic bigots or people getting anti-Semitism confused with a discussion on Israeli policy?

That's exactly what I mean tricia

I may be wrong but I get the impression some people seem to suggest that it is anti-Semitic to criticise the Israeli government. What we must remember is that as far as I understand the Israeli government is secular (?). But even if it wasn't, it can't be protected from being moaned at if it behaves badly.

So now I'm stuck and perhaps you can enlighten me iam how can the term Zionism be used in a perjoritve way? Given that it appears no more than a sort of lobby group??

Isn't there a far right party in Europe that denies the Holocaust - mad as a box of frogs imo. Bit like creationism and flat earthers

I love your questions whitewave - that is much how I have understood it. I do hope someone in the know can give us some clarification.

What fringe political party is debating whether the Holocaust happened?

lam64 wrote
"I can't imagine it's Muslim community being derided in the same kind of way."
And you know why - can't say it because it's racist. Though it seems to be acceptable to say eg President Assad is a cruel despot.
whitewave wrote
"So is it accepted then that we can criticise the Israeli state for perceived incorrect behaviour without being considered racist?"
That's the point about separating the criticism of a state and its leaders from that of a nation/race.
So with the UK it's ok to criticise May as a leader, but not to say eg ' English people are stupid/ insular' etc.
And the USA - we can criticise Trump without being accused of racism, but to say Americans are oversexed and over here is/was racist. As was said during WW2.

whitewave, I know no one, no organisation that has a problem with criticism of some of the actions of the Israeli government. Was that question tongue in cheek?

I do have a problem with the use of the word Zionist in the derogatory way its so often used. The history says the Jewish people were driven from their homeland, Israel. Many Jews who survived the holocaust in Europe were motivated never again to be subject to pograms or attempts to wipe their race from the face of the earth.
I joined a guided walk in Manchester recently, when the term Zionist was used to criticise one of the Guardian journalists. Manchester has a large Jewish community. I can't imagine it's Muslim community being derided in the same kind of way.

So is it accepted then that we can criticise the Israeli state for perceived incorrect behaviour without being considered racist?

I think it just about sums it up whitewave
Iam64 I used the term because his family were integral in the establishment of the state of Israel. "Peled grew up in Motza Illit to a prominent Zionist family; his grandfather, Avraham Katsnelson, signed Israel’s Declaration of Independence.[1][2] His father, Mattityahu Peled, fought in the 1948 war, and served as a general in the war of 1967; later, after the Israeli cabinet ignored his investigation of a 1967 alleged Israeli war crime, he became an advocate for an Israeli dialogue with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)"-from Wiki
It is interesting that his father moved away from this and Miko himself has declared only a 1 state solution with equal voting rights for Israelis and Palestinians is the only real solution.
I do think these are the sorts of people who should be talking about the problem.

Can I begin by saying that I have zero axe to grind and am really trying to get to grips with this. It would be helpful if any Jewish grans could put me right.

So my understanding is this.

A Zionist is someone who believes in a national homeland for Jewish people in what the bible describes as The Holy Land. I am not sure of the exact geographical area of this and how far it spreads.

So from that I understand that it is a project that is ongoing, suggesting that the existing state is not the exact area of the bible.

So it is almost like a lobby group?

Therefore not everyone of the Jewish faith belongs to this group
You could belong to this group even if you are not Jewish, because you believe in the cause?

So disagreeing with this lobby group cannot possibly make you racist because it is about geography not religion?

If it means that the goal of the Zionist is to take land from the Palestinians in the course of their eventual goal, I am extremely uncomfortable with it.

If I totally disagree with their aims and goals why does that make me an anti-Semite? I am happy that the Jewish people have their own state, but cannot see why they have a god given right to grab more land from other people.

Be happy to be put right on this

There should not be debate in any fringe political party as to if the holocaust 'actually happened' because we all know full well that it did!

Good posts Iam64 as ever, your posts are fair comments,
In which you decide on 'rightness' and not if the political party concerned is your own or not.?

It's going to feel very empty loopy!!

pogs um ---yes?

loop you sound like Murdoch's Sun