Jews and racism

I should think one in three of the population, generally, will think of leaving the UK if Corbyn's Labour party gets in.

There it is again grannyactivist, the term zionist/zionism used in a derogatory way. I'm not ignoring Palestinians but I am questioning why it is that this term is seen as totally acceptable. I have many friends who are "friends of Israel", who share the concerns about Palestinians but are not bigoted, racist oppressors. It seems to me to be on a par with accusing all practicing Muslims of being jihadi's when they comment on the wars in the Middle East as the responsibility of the West.

The meeting was chaired by MP Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and her own views are given in a 3 minute speech to the LP Conference here:
jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/naomi-wimborne-idrissi-addresses-labour.html

Whitewave

" It is worth mentioning that it was held in a very small venue, was on the outer fringes and not condoned by the Labour Party. It is unfortunate that it slipped in to the programme of events."

You have made further mention of this meeting requesting more detail.

As has been mentioned the fringe meeting was chaired by Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi.

I could be mistaken but I am of the belief she is the same person you mentioned on the ' Voting for Jeremy Corbyn - the political equivalent of buying a Harley Davidson ' thread. If I am correct she is the one you posted about saying :-

" Jewish lady speaking about Palestinian state - good stuff "

" Standing ovation for her".

Why am I of the belief it was Wimborne-Idrissi ? I was watching the Conference and looking at GN at the same time on monday .

Interesting ambiguity - I had begun to think he was in a cupboard with BS

His name, I believe.

Was KL given a cheer at the meeting or was his name given a cheer? Or maybe neither

That could explain why Ken Livingstone was given a cheer at that meeting then Iam64

I think one of the delegates made a good point, which was reported in The Guardian. He said antisemitism was the only form of bigotry where a common response was not to accept the complaint, but to question the motives of the complainant.

Yes its possible for Jewish people, or those of Jewish descent to be antisemitic. I've known a number

Miko Peled is an Israeli American with a family background of Zionizm (trisher 26 september 13.48). As I understand it, Zionism is the support of the return of the Jewish people to the land of their origin and the development of that state. I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. What I do struggle with is that the term is always used in a derogatory manner. At the fringe meeting in question, I've read that Zionism was seen as Nazism.

primrose there are some huge assumptions you are making, without real knowledge.

So what is going on Primrose65 would you like to express in your own words what you think is happening? What I see is a group of left wing people who are concerned for the rights of an oppressed minority, many of them are very young and idealistic. They were addressed by an Israeli American who wanted an open discussion. There seems to be no proof of anything else that was said part from one report. If one person at a meeting calls for something to be done and that is discussed it doesn't mean that everyone there was in favour of it.

Primrose why would I do that. I am not a Labour Party member and currently just gather as much information as I can.

I am not sure I can be blamed for what a guest says on the daily politics either.

I don't understand why a call to expel the Jewish Labour Movement from the party or asking to debate 'did the Holocaust happen, yes or no' is a criticism of Israel.

Perhaps gg you should ask why the left wing press don't attend these meetings - best to make sure there's no 'evidence' of these 'discussions' is my guess. One of the guests on the DP said to the guest from Guido 'you only went because you knew this would happen'. Good grief! They all know what's going on and they ignore it. It's a disgrace.

It's also interesting who made the remarks. Miko Peled is an Israeli-American with a family background of Zionism. It seems extraordinary that someone who has such a pedigree cannot be allowed to discuss what is after all his race's history. Can we accuse someone who is of Jewish descent of being anti-semitic? Is it anti-semitic to forbid a Jew to discuss the Holocaust?
This is not the simple case of 'there are anti-semitics in the Labour Party' that some would like to pretend it is. It is much more complicated and arguably the only way to reach any solution is to talk about it.

Interesting tricia

I must say that criticising the Israeli government over its treatment of Palestine and Palestinians could not be remotely construed as being anti-semetic.

It would be the same as saying that criticism of any government over its treatment of another country is anti-Christian or Muslim etc. It is ridiculous.

For my part I feel very uneasy at the way Israel is behaving towards the Palestinians but I simply do not remotely associate it with Judaism. For me it is incidental.

It's an interesting answer to the criticism being raised Primrose but the only 'quotes' about what actually was said still seem to be coming from the Guido Fawkes piece. What is said to have happened at the meeting only gets a very few lines the rest is a discussion piece in reaction to the furore caused by Guido Fawkes article, and all that has been drawn from it by other papers.

It seem you don't understand what I was saying Primrose as shown by the paragraph you quote. It is a standard holding message. It doesn't agree that anything was actually said. This is all just a witch-hunt. If, and we have very little evidence, things were said which should not be said then I have no doubt it will be dealt with at least as well as any of the other parties would.

Thanks for reviving this subject, Primrose. It reminded me of something I intended to add to the thread.
2 weeks ago a major new piece of research was published which puts a different slant on the subjects of antisemitism and anti-Israelism. Here's a link:
www.jpr.org.uk/publication?id=9993
As well as finding that the large majority of GB residents harbour no anti-Jewish feelings, ('no antiSemitic ideas or views at at all) it finds that politically some far right tend to be anti-Jewish, some far-left, anti-Israel.
For religious groups, a high proportion of Muslims are both anti - J or I.

gg It's in the Guardian, if you want a left wing report

"Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, has said the party will investigate how it gave a platform at a conference fringe event to a speaker who said people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust happened."

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/26/new-antisemitism-row-for-labour-over-fringe-speakers-holocaust-remarks-miko-peled

I very much doubt there will be a transcript of the meeting when they banned all recording. Best not to have a record of that sort of 'free speech'.

I have no problem with people discussing the Holocaust and thanks for the link maryeliza, I stand corrected & always happy to defer to the facts!

I have been trying to find any other source for the reports, such as those in The Times and The Telegraph, other than Guido Fawkes. Do we see them write in order to support or even just discuss Corbyn's concerns about the behavior of the Israeli Government towards the Palestinians - a perfectly reasonable question to raise. It often seems the the purpose of these raising the question of ant-Semitism is to suppress this discussion as others have suggested.

It is no good thinking anti-Semitism doesn't exist; it does along with all other racism, but like so many areas were the right-wing press attempts to set one group against another the people involved in it are very small in number and spread throughout our society. Are these papers saying there are no anti-Semites in the Conservative Party, the Liberals or, in particular, UKIP. A senior Alternative for Germany member is to address Ukip conference apparently.

It exists and it's very existence fuels attempts to close down discussion about states - not a race a state. The LP have condemned it and will look into these rumours - because that is what I believe they are until I get a better source of information that just one person.

I do think if we knew who actually spoke at the meeting we would have some idea of the likely script.

I would very much like to know where I can read a transcript of what was said so that I can speak with a bit of knowledge on the issue.

Can someone direct me please

www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/israeli-born-anti-zionist-calls-israel-a-racist-settler-regime-at-labour-conference-1.444944

Having read the Jewish Chronicle article, I stand by what I posted - the speaker wasn't denying the Holocaust but said under the banner of free speech that it should be able to be debated. I don't agree with that but saying you should be able to discuss it isn't the same as denying it.

I read what the Telegraph reported about the supposedly Holocaust denial and it really didn't read like that - it was part of a speech by an Israeli American author who was making a plea for free speech and for being able to debate a range of issues, including the Holocaust. He wasn't denying the Holocaust at all - if he had ( or others had) I'm sure the DT would have reported it - quite rightly. I'd like Baggs to contribute on this - she's a real champion of free speech. My instinctive feeling is that we shouldn't debate whether or not the Holocaust is true but what I've read so far doesn't say that the Holocaust was denied. I'll try and get the link - I wish they had recorded the meeting

What I do think people should be able to say is that the expansion of illegal settlements is wrong without being labelled anti-Semitic.
I absolutely agree with that. That's not what is happening though. It's people denying the Holocaust and other very, very extreme views being cheered.