Jews and racism

The Bal four programme on BBC 2 was fascinating. Explains a lot.

I suppose you are right really. It was just that I wanted to start liking her again, I stopped respecting her when she didn't vote against the benefit cap, and I wanted that to change.

It was hardly the context in which to have an intellectual academic discussion - it was Andrew Neil

I agree Primrose I’m disappointed in her lack o& judgement

Well imo Ilovecheese you don't need to tell it on live TV to illustrate anything. She's not naive, inexperienced on TV or intellectually challenged. She did tie it in on social media to promote her book released earlier this year though. Nicely done Harriet!

"Harriet Harman needs to explain that a 'joke' about putting 99 Jews in an ashtray is not funny. I think she has larger issues than 'no sense of humour'."

That's what she was saying though. That the joke was not funny.

I just cannot believe that HH told that ‘joke’. Some things shouldn’t be said in that type of situation even to illustrate a point.

It never occurred to me that to mark the centenary of the Balfour declaration, Harriet Harman needs to explain that a 'joke' about putting 99 Jews in an ashtray is not funny. I think she has larger issues than 'no sense of humour'.

There was a very interesting programme on tv i think last night discussing the balfour declaration letter. This was a personal letter, never debated in parliament, only 67 words long, saying in a nutshell that jews should be given a homeland in palestine, a final sentence was added which stated that the palestinian people should not lose out.

I think her motivation was that she has so often been
criticised in the past for having no sense of humour, what she was trying to say was that maybe she wasn't laughing at some jokes because they just weren't funny.

Harriet Harman on 'This Week' told an anti-semitic 'joke' which really angered Andrew Neil. Told 'as an example of something inappropriate', but I don't think anyone would consider a very offensive 'joke' about the Holocaust as anything else. I really don't understand her motivation for saying it. I'm surprised the BBC broadcast it.

jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-palestine-group-apologises-for-final-solution-tweet/

Labour Palestine group apologises for ‘final solution’ tweet. But they've said sorry.

Not sure they're up to the job of peacemaker between Israel and Palestine when this is the quality of their communication skills.

Good luck!!!

I've started on Zionism what a minefield.

They all seemed to live into extraordinary old age!! Abraham was 86 when he had Ishmael, who equally lived to be 187!!!! Sarah had Isaac when she was over 80, and Abraham 100!! and so it goes on !! Poetic licence? or miraculous indeed!!!!

tricia Fascinating stuff, I had no clue about this. It would make sense that Christian's are descended from Isaac.

Right I'm off to try to research Zionism now and will get back if I get stuck.

tricia thank you - you've been patient and informative.

Perhaps Wiki can help you ww or even Google.

According to scriptures, the descendants of Ishmael eventually became the Arab/Muslim race.
The descendants of Isaac became the Jewish race.
And the Christians? Some say they're descended from Esau, the twin brother of Jacob, who was Isaac's son.
All claim to worship the same God.

So Ishmael and Issac were Jewish and Muslim? I'm in a muddle here someone willing to dig me out please?

I can see both their points up to a point! To me two states seems so simple, and certainly necessary for both sides to live in harmony! Sadly it now seems beyond the realms of possibility, when at one time it seemed within reach. Treating Israel like a pariah state is not helpful or justified as clearly after centuries of appalling persecution culminating in the holocaust, Jewish people needed a safe haven that they could call home, equally Palestinian's need the same, so why on earth can't it happen?!!

You're right, nigglynellie.
Since then Israel has backed down and agreed to the 2 state solution a few times, but one of the Palestinian leaders has refused . Starting with Yasser Arafat.
It's basically a battle between the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac for the right to own the Holy Land. They hate eachother.
imo you can't avoid the religious angle in this, especially on the Palestinian side.
I can see their point too.

If I understand it correctly, the Palestinians were offered homeland at the same time as the creation of Israel in 1948. Unfortunately the state of Israel was attacked by neighbouring Arab states almost before 'The ink had dried upon the negotiation paper' so to speak, so the creation of a state of Palestine had to be postponed and has been ever since for the never ending hostilities or presumably other reasons from an Israeli perspective.

Actually re reading your post tricia I think Zionism started centuries ago. I can quite well look it up myself really. Must move my posteria!

Brilliant thanks for that

So Zionism began in the early part of the 20th century?

It was a movement that agitated for the return to what they saw as the land that rightly belonged to those following the Jewish faith?

Can anyone tell me why Israel refuses to allow Palestine as an independent state? What does Israel say its status is?

How many arabs/Palestinians were displaced as a result of the formation of Israel?

Big ask but I'm scribbling this down as it springs to mind. Don't bother to reply if you are cheesed off with my questions, but it is fascinating and something I've only ever skimmed over.

Oh Dear - I don't know where to start!
Trying to keep it short, I think it began when the Hebrews were dispersed from the Holy Land after Roman takeover after 70 ad. Some went north others went south.
Many years later, those who went north (Ashkenazim) began increasingly to be persecuted (why?).
Eventually, in the early19th century a movement was started, mostly among young Jews, determined to return to the land they thought of as their only real home.
At the same time there was the influx to the USA.
The 'homeland' wasn't called Israel or Palestine at that time. It was inhabited mainly by Arabs/Muslims, and a few Jews who had been there since the dispersal. That was the start of Zionism.
Those who had fled south (Sephardim) don't seem to have had so much persecution, and usually managed to live in peace with their Arab neighbours, and Muslims, after that religion developed around the 7th century.
It seems that the current troubles started in 1948 when the Holy Land became Israel. There was a terrible war between Jews and Arabs/Muslims.