Sovereignty and 'take back control'

Part of the reply from an Austrian MEP to junckers speech.
"What Mr Juncker wants de facto is to force the European Union into a single state, and we know that the euro is not a success story extroadinary depts, we've seen the astonishing unemployment, astonishing negative social impact on people's lives, we see the incredible social instability"
Juncker walked out.

We are no longer equal with other EU countries.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/13/brexit-britain-eu-european

The EU is getting bored with Brexit, and has moved on.

www.waronwant.org/media/government-immigration-plans-are-betrayal-justice-we-all-deserve-dignity

There's a debate about higher education fees, where the government passed an increase in between parliaments using statutory instruments - i.e. Henry V111 powers.
The government will not change its mind about this, and cannot be made to.
Henry V111 powers are already used, but just in small areas. The Brexit ones are going to be massive.

Change my mind about what?
I am still shocked at the number of labour MPs who voted with the government. It wasn't necessary.

Shock: a sudden upsetting or surprising event or experience.

Not, note POGS, some continuing state. Your comment What made you change your mind? doesn't even make sense.

POGS
At least two sovereign states, Denmark and Holland see which way the wind is blowing: a federal Europe.

Pogs Speaking with one voice over which issue? There are 27 nations so of course there will be differing views. They usually come to some consensus.

At least no one there yet has powers equivalent to Tudor times!

Does anyone know at what stage the so-called Henry8 clause will come up in these debates? Are the debates due to go on for several days?
I'm not really sure what was the motion they voted on Monday night?

I have been watching live MEP's giving their views on the ' State of The Union Address ' by Junker and it was , as always, 'very interesting' .

It is a personal position I know but it is important to me to be reminded that as with all National Parliaments the European Union Parliament is equally not ' speaking with one voice' no matter how hard some people believe that to be the case.

durhamjen and Gracesgran

GracesGranMK2 Mon 11-Sep-17 20:07:16
I am shocked by the LP MPs who are going to vote for it.

durhamjen Mon 11-Sep-17 20:23:04

Same here, Gracesgran. There could be up to 20 of them, so some reports say.

What made you change your mind?

Of course it would worry me if we had a Corbyn government*. It would worry me whatever government we had. It is a licence for dictatorship and the pathetic excuse of 'this needs to be done as quickly as possible' is absolutely no justification for it at all.

If this passes (which I devoutly hope it won't), the genie will be out of the bottle and will never be stuffed back in again. No government, of any shade, is going to pass up the chance of absolute and unrestricted power.

There will be plenty of scrutiny in Parliament over the really important things.

But if the Bill passes Parliament can scrutinise away as much as it likes but it won't have the slightest effect on any proposed changes. It'll be lip service; a show, a facade. a mockery...The Executive will do whatever it pleases completely unchecked.

and it bloody annoys me that this is what passes for 'debate'; 'whatifferry' and 'whataboutery' are pathetic devices... Principles come before politics...(and there won't *be any politics if May and the Brexiteers get their way)

We cannot know that Lemon nowhere does it say that - it is blanket coverage.
A view from the the 'other side ' for many people - but some of us find ourselves or some of our family members in this position.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/13/brexit-rights-theresa-may-eu-uk-brexit-identity?CMP=share_btn_link

Unfortunately, whatever, I, and nigglynellie and any other Leaver says will not cut any ice, so the insults (only done by Remainers on here) will continue unabated.
Just read the posts through and you will see this.
So, I will leave you to the usual echo chamber.

Yes MaizieD I do 'get it' but it doesn't worry me the way it worries you and others on here, I wonder if it would worry you if we had a Corbyn led Government ( am thinking probably not.)It's not ideal, but having to do it like this is the only way to do things in time.There will be plenty of scrutiny in Parliament over the really important things.

Welshwife, sadly William Keegan puts so well the more thoughtful side balancing the emoting we constantly hear.

Back to the topic. Although I am worried about the use of Henry VIII clauses re Brexit I am equally worried just about the use of them for any amendment or repeal of primary legislation which, as the Lords constitution committee, among others, has repeatedly warned is a use that “remains a departure from constitutional principle”.

We just need a government the Brexiteers don't agree with and there will be howls from them if these powers are used in this way.

From the Guardian this morning

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/10/brexit-no-punishment-apart-from-inflicted-ourselves-barnier?CMP=share_btn_link

Niggly, cognisance is really useful but I know some people loose it as time goes by. I think you would have a better chance it you actually read things.

It was me who said I was shocked. However, it was not me who doesn't use Google and, although I will happily read (and then determine for myself if the content is relevant) any source of information I do not 'rely on skwarkbox'. Mind you I can't see any problem with it either as long as I do some thinking.

As for Aung Sung Sun Sui Kyi - I am stunned rather than shocked but I haven't seen the thread you started on this. Could you put a link?

Maizie is right. You cannot add anything to the subject so you bluster and attack other members. I think it is well passed time to press the 'ignore' button on your posts.

The Skwawkbox interview is with Skinner.
Do you not want to know what HE thinks about the situation and why HE says he voted the way he did?
Of course not, you'd much rather read what Guido Fawkes, says, much more relevant than hearing from the man himself.

The film about Skinner is out now; it's called The Nature of the Beast.

www.theguardian.com/film/2017/sep/03/daniel-draper-director-nature-of-the-beast-dennis-skinner-interview

Sorry it's from the Guardian rather than Guido-Fawkes.

Whataboutery, nellie, whataboutery. That's not 'drifting' from the thread topic, that's completely derailing it.
But I suppose that Leavers know that derailing a thread is preferrable to thinking about the implications of the Brexit Bill. After all, the people pointing out its dangers include lawyers, those much derided 'experts'. What do lawyers know about anything...
(And thinking doesn't seem to come easily to some Leavers...)

The attitude of Aung Sung Sun Sui Kyi shocks me, I can't believe it doesn't shock people on here too. But there you go, it takes all sorts!

You're shocked!!! How pathetic is that! You don't look at Google but rely on skwarkbox! Are you for real? It's just laughable!!

It's just really bad manners Jen whether or not you will look. Either that or there is actually nothing to back her argument and, rather than admit it, Niggly would prefer to be seen as a very rude person. I'm shocked

lemongrove, you still don't get it, do you? Whatever Labour did in the 1970s they did not pass legislation enabling them to make and amend legislation without the scrutiny of parliament. The packing of committees is a minor issue (though it gains in significance by the very fact that it enhances the 'power grab' effect of the Henry VIII clauses in the repeal Bill). By not putting any time limit on these powers, or restricting them to matters relating to bringing EU legislation into British law, the government gives itself the ability to do anything it likes, at any time, without the consent of parliament.