Catalonia

I find the whole question of 'nationalism' very complex, JessM. A great many European countries are entities by way of being historically under the dominion of a particular ruling family or having been passed from pillar to post in dynastic marriage settlements or by conquest. Or by being part of a political settlement after a European war, or by rebellion or civil war. . Some of these changes have taken place within our lifetimes, such as the divisions of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia.

Who is to say that these entities are set in stone for ever more?

Can't agree with the awful violence and counterproductive tactics of the Spanish government. Stupid move. However I am always deeply distrustful of nationalism in all its forms. On the surface it's sentimental "love of country (region)" Scratch it and there is really nastiness and hatred of "the other" just below the surface. There is also a tendency to take the moral high ground and create sacred cows that cannot be criticised.
And on a practical level if Catalonia declared independence they would be outside the EU. There is nothing to suggest they could somehow piggyback on Spanish membership and remain inside as they seem to be thinking. It would be a massive mess. They might apply for membership but they would not get it. Spain would block it. As would countries like France, Belgium, and the UK. Why would they want to encourage their own regions to declare independence and stay in the EU?
I remember once while on a driving holiday in Northern Spain, every region we went to seemed to have "nationalistic" graffiti. (just for starters the Basque country and Galicia have their own languages...)

^ However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.^

This is a difficult one, POGS, because violence is the ultimate tool of enforcement for a government; the EU cannot, as a body, take any other view than that expressed by Timmerman else they would be undermining the sovereignty of each of the EU nation's governments; in that they would be indicating that governments should not ever be able to use physical force to enforce their laws.

Of course, this is a moot point in itself, but at the moment this is the commonly understood view of 'power', as it has been for hundreds of years.

(And if any one is going to indulge in a bit of Polish 'whataboutery' I would suggest that the situations are quite different)

I had a link on a Facebook group but just googled - El Pais - Catalonia - English and the article came up - 'what really happened' - might interest some of you.

Welshwife. When you say the article 'what really happened' are you referring to the one about the number of injuries which CherryHatrick linked to or is there a different one?

I've read the articles she linked to and I find it hard to judge whether or not El Pais is being particularly objective in its reporting. Perhaps it loses some nuance in translation.

Same old same old then.

One side says ' this ' another will say ' that ' .

I must admit that I watched the EU Parliament on Catalonia and my belief is there were MEP's , not from those fairly or unfairly as the case may be, from the far right who took the view the European Parliament was not giving the Catalonia problem due diligence. So I suppose I take a different view to El Pais, again rightly or wrongly, when it says:-

Who in Europe supports the Catalan secessionists?

'Leaders of far-right movements are making use of the crisis in Catalonia to attack the EU'.

Perhaps they are but there are many voices who understand the Constitutional requirements but raise the point the deployment and violence that happened was not appropriate, unlike the view of Franz Timmerman who as spokesman for the EU Parliament said:-

" However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.”

Some of the El Pais in English links....

elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507104937_874487.html

elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507101494_919786.html

elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507129814_170926.html

elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/05/inenglish/1507193722_170844.html

If you do that googling it puts more of a complete scenario to the situation - and if the article can be believed - and so far I have not seen it poo-pooed - then it is not a situation as the Catalonian Govt would have the world believe.

Welsh wife
Can you expand on 'What might interest us' please.

My belief is EL PAIS is a paper that supports democracy but is based in Madrid and I can see conflicts of interest but that would be conspiracy theory on my part without any evidence as to why.

Genuinely interested, not asking for the sake of argument.

petra

You have made a reasonable point as there most certainly
were a number of people who refused to acknowledge the continuing strength of movement for a Federal State of Europe an EU Armed Force, Monetary System etc. by 'some ' in the EU Parliament and Commission.

Like yourself I distinctly recall being basically called an ignorant Brexiteer ( that's because of their ignorance might I add) when I mentioned it on the ' many ' threads that have discussed Brexit .

Old threads are very interesting to read and at least it is noticeable some have accepted points made pre / after the EU Referendum but only because it is a case of you cannot defend the indefensible scenario as it is confirmed by the likes of Junker .

No ...no... meant Exited EU Club.

I could not do a link as it required me to fill in a lot of personal stuff first and I don't know Spanish - the article is the English version about the events in Catalonia.
I had a link on a Facebook group but just googled - El Pais - Catalonia - English and the article came up - 'what really happened' - might interest some of you.

UN? About as much use as an ashtray on a moto bike.

I'm not sure they ever did Petra. I can't be the only one who has been aware of it for years. I think you are creating a conspiracy theory where there is no conspiracy -certainly no more than any other political movement pushing forward its view.

Back to Catalonia and what can be done. My fear is bloodshed and the government or those who want out imposing their views rather than taking people with them and it looks as if the EU are going to do nothing. Just a thought - what about the UN?

How many times have some of us posted that it is the intention of the eu to form into a federal state with one tax system, one monetary system, one army, one court?
At least now they're not hiding their intention.

Become part of an Exited Brexit Club.

If Catalonia becomes independent, perhaps we could do trade deals with them.

Interesting, but not surprising POGS as nothing will stand in the way of their vision of a Federal State Of Europe!
We are well out of it.

BBC Parliament aired ' live ' this morning (Wednesday) the debate on Catalonia in the EU Parliament.

I was quite shocked but sadly not surprised by some of the MEP's comments.

The Catalonia Independence issue has been known for decades . Whilst I understand the legality/constitutional points regarding the Independence Referendum I am of the opinion both the rhetoric and action taken in the EU Parliament today coupled with the Spanish Governments willingness for using violence to subdue the vote will have created a major problem not only for Spain but for the EU also.

The debate was constructed in a manner that was favourable to the largest EU group , the European People’s Party, which includes Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s Popular Party.

Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans whilst calling for 'talks' said this :-

" Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument,”

“None of us want to see violence in our societies,” "However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.”
-----

Guy Verhofstadt:-

" No, what we need is a new political vision, inclusive dialogue.

“A vision that the future and our people living in Spain lies in a multicultural, multilingual federal state embedded in a multicultural, multilingual federal Europe.
-------

Others argued that the EU Commission was hypocritical in it's approach and had it been another country inside or out of the EU condemnation of the violence would have been accepted. Others saw the need for a Federal State of Europe and not Rocking the boat as the reason for not condemning the violence that took place.

It was another interesting debate from the EU Parliament !

"Just for completeness, here’s Article 2, which Article 7 references. “The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail”. "

Don't you think article seven applies, as Spain has definitely broken this article.

No, I just need to be quicker posting.

OK DJ - it's me who needs to wake up

Paul Mason retweeted this:

Dear @JunckerEU :
Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."
Please share.

Which is not true, there is no such wording in Art 7.

Then he tweeted it himself. I see from his timeline that he now appears to have removed it but it took several attempts by various people telling him he was wrong before he did.

There have also been a lot of ranty Brexiters repeating this and howling with rage because the EU hasn't intervened. Which is odd, really. I thought that they voted Leave to get away from EU interference.

www.theweek.co.uk/catalonia-independence/88743/catalonia-90-back-independence-on-day-of-violence

Why did police need to use rubber bullets? One man lost an eye.

Yes, I was referring to Paul Mason. Unfortunately two other posts got in before me.
I know Franco is dead, thanks, Tricia. In fact I have been following Paul Mason's frightening tweets.

You'll be telling me next that the woman who had her fingers broken one by one by these "police" deserved it for trying to vote.
Another way of disrupting the vote was to stop the wifi. All the people who vote have to have a link on their mobiles. They were asked to put them om aeroplane mode outside the polling stations so that the 4G system still worked inside.

twitter.com/lizcastro/status/914433815766093825

Article seven of the EU treaty says that any state that breaks article two can have its rights suspended.

Paul Mason said he had seen two thousand riot police on ships in the harbour, waiting for permission to come onshore.
It's no wonder only 40% of the population voted. I agree with Esspee, Spain has scored an own goal.