Let's not forget Brexit

*bureaucrat
ˈbjʊərəkrat
noun
an official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs*

Sounds about right to me!

simply don't understand how anyone wants to be governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels

I am so sick of seeing this stupid statement repeated over and over again. The EU government arrangements are very similar to ours, except that they don't have an unelected body as we do in the House of Lords. Their 'bureaucracy' (which is much smaller than ours) is the equivalent of our Civil Service. The bureaucrats rule nothing; they draft legislation on the instructions of the executive and carry out administrative tasks.

I am tempted to believe that people who parrot this mantra don't even know what a bureaucrat is.

Whitewave

" pogs I do agree that it is incredibly difficult to keep up with this chaotic government. Blink and they changed their minds. Often facing two ways at once."
----

Where did I say it is incredibly difficult to keep up with this chaotic government or give the impression that was my opinion?

I may or may not hold that opinion . I am content to say I do however think Labour has 'often faced two ways at once' .

Tegan getting back to your question to me...

I'm happy to answer but for me to understand your question can you be specific as to how the people you listed are being adversely affected by Brexit?

But that still hasn't answered my question. What would you say to my friend in Ireland who is worried about the troubles starting up again? Do you have any concern for her? Is 'oh, everything is going to be ok' enough of an answer?? I want concrete evidence that 'everything is going to be ok' given that we were told that brexit would be dead easy and countries were queuing up to trade with us [oh and the good old Americans would help us out].

Tegan Many great statesmen are dead - it doesn't make their message any less relevant.

What's Tony Benn got to do with it? He's dead!!

Day 6

With regard to those who govern and make decisions for us Benn asked....

“What power have you got?”
“Where did you get it from?”
“In whose interests do you use it?”
“To whom are you accountable?”
“How do we get rid of you?”

Brilliant logic.

I simply don't understand how anyone wants to be governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels

people adversely affected by brexit, beit EU nationals living abroad, the people of Ireland, the Scots [who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU] etc.

Tegan - Brexit hasn't happened yet. Negotiations are ongoing and will be for some time.

There is a lot of scaremongering from Remainers about adverse affects but I think those brokering the deal will have the interests of the UK at heart and that is all we can ask for. The UK is leaving. Those countries and citizens remaining have to adjust without our financial input and presence.

You see a tidal wave as a result, I see ripples in a stream which has been diverted. In truth neither of us knows what life will be like for anyone in the UK, EU and beyond in 2021.

Leavers have as big a social conscience as remainers, merely seeing the EU from a different point of view.

Tegan - if it gives you pleasure to paint those who wanted us to leave the EU as uncaring or without a social conscience to be it. You can also accuse one of the most eloquent of former MPs of being the same then. Tony Benn, a Eurosceptic (along with Corbyn) famously defended our democracy.

If defending democracy makes Leavers short sighted and without a social conscience then you have a warped view of anyone who doesn't think along the same lines as you do.

With regard to those who govern and make decisions for us Benn asked....

“What power have you got?”

“Where did you get it from?”

“In whose interests do you use it?”

“To whom are you accountable?”

“How do we get rid of you?”

"Benn identified most proudly as a small “d” democrat, a tireless promoter of a power-to-the-people ethic that placed its faith in the great mass of humanity rather than billionaires, media moguls and political powerbrokers."

It is those 'political powerbrokers' of the EU we should fear. The 'great mass of humanity' in the UK has spoken in a power-to-the-people referendum and voted for what they want. Because you didn't like the result you continue to hurl abuse at those who wanted a different outcome.

Sour grapes and sore loser spring to mind.

www.thenation.com/article/tony-benn-and-five-essential-questions-democracy/

Tegan

I will do my best... can you be specific. How are the people you list being adversely affected by Brexit?

Statistics... It seems to me that data can be misleading. With regard to educational levels I would think that, given the information we have that remain voters are the most likely to have been educated to a higher level, the following would be the case:

Young people were more likely to vote remain - they are also more likely to have attended university. Older people were more likely to vote leave - they were much more likely not to have gone to university.

Having said that, statistically it appears that those educated to A level who voted to leave/remain were 50/50. I think that this would be a more relevant indicator, though even then, not completely accurate as it is common for the older generations to leave school before taking A levels, students are much more likely now to take them.

*It seems to me that the remainers consider themselves to be the only ones with either social conscience or intelligence. Perhaps they might realise that this is not the case if they just read posts from leavers? The shame is that it would appear that the leavers have been browbeaten into not posting.

My feeling is that by portraying leavers as moronic racists is just a way for the losers in the referendum vote to feel better about the situation.*

Thank you Oriel. I share your concerns.

'It seems to me that the remainers consider themselves to be the only ones with either social conscience or intelligence. Perhaps they might realise that this is not the case if they just read posts from leavers? The shame is that it would appear that the leavers have been browbeaten into not posting'
...I'm happy to be shown to be mistaken but, on the whole, I don't seem to hear of any empathy from people who voted leave towards people adversely affected by brexit, beit EU nationals living abroad, the people of Ireland, the Scots [who voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU] etc. This is the reason why I am led to believe that leavers do NOT have a social conscience. Please prove me wrong in some way. I am happy to be educated in this matter.

The main social characteristics which differentiate leavers and remainders is level of education followed by age followed by region. I don't have to give the details - these are statistical findings which I am sure everyone is aware of and not about people's views on race / intelligence/ how informed they are.

Which ones were they?

If you read my posts oriel I have gone some way in answering your question.

I find this thread depressing.

Those that voted to remain are in the minority. A democratic vote was held and the country voted to leave. As a leave voter I am heartily fed up with being dismissed as being racist, or naive, or unintelligent, or all of the aforementioned on this forum. There have been several posters who have given their reasons for voting as they did - they were either totally ignored (in my case) or dismissed.

I have asked several times on this thread (especially to whitewave as he/she seems to be the most prolific poster in this regard) for clarification as to why they feel that those that voted to leave have been duped into doing so - I was ignored.

It seems to me that the remainers consider themselves to be the only ones with either social conscience or intelligence. Perhaps they might realise that this is not the case if they just read posts from leavers? The shame is that it would appear that the leavers have been browbeaten into not posting.

My feeling is that by portraying leavers as moronic racists is just a way for the losers in the referendum vote to feel better about the situation. The irony is that those who would be first to cry 'racist' don't seem to mind posting derogatory comments about a particular section of society.

pogs I do agree that it is incredibly difficult to keep up with this chaotic government. Blink and they changed their minds. Often facing two ways at once.

Violette

" Michel Barnier and Guy Verhofstadt are so far the only two politicians to speak ANY sense whatever .....nothing will be discussed further UNTIL the rights of both EU citizens inthe UK and UK citizens living in EU countries are settled. "

I have heard Theresa May from the start repeatedly say in Parliament, interviews etc. her concern is for the ' Reciprocal Rights ' for UK Citizens living in the other 27 member states as well as EU citizens living in the UK. She was slapped down from the start by the EU and Merkel was she not.

Have I missed something?

Have the European Union negotiators / the EU Parliament declared the rights of UK Citizens living in the 27 member states will remain as of now irrespective of what the UK does.

Where did you read/hear Theresa May say -

"I could not believe May the other day when she was asked about this, saying We guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK and then she was asked about UK Citizens in the EU and her response was 'I don't know anything about them'///marvellous !"

Can you give more detail as I am interested in the context of how/why she said that as it doesn't make sense given her previous stance has been the guaranteeing the rights of UK citizens in the rest of the EU.

Theresa May has agreed to pay what we owe in the divorce settlement and meet our commitments but the EU is not happy with this and wants more. They know that when we leave its our money they will miss most being one of the main countries that pay more than our fair share, they will be in dire straits and they know this. May should call their bluff and walk away.

Just out of interest I've been browsing some old, pre-referendum, threads (which, incidentally, are very similar to this one, apart from a few posters who seemed genuinely undecided then, but are now rampant Brexiteers)

This exchange amused me:

"I think those that want the UK out will soon regret the decision when Putin starts flexing his muscles and picking off the weaker countries, which will obviously include the UK."

skullduggery, that is hilarious scaremongering.Where did you get that daft notion from?

You may have forgotten that one of our biggest allies is the USA. You cannot pick off countries one by one. Even the smallest have allies. Putin knows all his actions will have consequences.

Rings a bit hollow now in view of Trump and his admiration for Putin.

Ever since Trump was elected I have felt that Europe has to be the safest place for us to be.

Brexiteers are surprised the EU is insisting on clear financial settlement - if you're the party in a divorce who didn't want the divorce in the first place- wouldn't you want to to ensure the other partner met their financial obligations in full? They're not being the "nasty" partner.
Those who are hoping for an EU collapse to justify their beliefs - there are just as many hoping for a UK collapse - Neither is pleasant.

gg

A shockingly high number-23% of people asked still think that we will be better off after Brexit according to the Times.

Still that does mean that those understanding the issues and think we will be worse off has risen a huge amount. At last they are beginning to put two and two together and realising the lies that have been told.

Like Davis — remember his bland assurances about how easy it was all going to be with a silly grin in his face? Not so cocky now is he as he fails week after week to find it easy.
Like Farage who stood in front of one of the most racist posters since the Nazi regime and assured us of the foreign invasion. Last I heard he was applying for a German passport
Like Johnson who alarmed so many by insisting that the Turkish hoards were about to land on our shores.

Like the assurances that red tape and bureaucracy would be reduced by an enormous amount. When in fact Customs and shipping and export documentation will increase exponentially.
Like Fox’s assurance that ex-commonwealth countries and the US will be falling over themselves to trade with us - that was one of the biggest lies and has been found out very quickly.
Like the £350million for the NHS
Like the assurances that immigration would be reduced to the 10 of thousands -as somehow all those industries who depend on their vital contribution can manage without them.
Like the assurance that we will be taking back our sovereignty, as if somehow it had been lost, when in fact our sovereignty was alive and kicking and playing a very important roll in the formulation of EU law.
Like the lies that somehow EU law interferes in our domestic life, when it doesn’t take too much intelligence to understand that EU law is all about the single market and ensuring a level playing field for all businesses in the EU. The UK has profited enormously from this and we are about to throw it all away.

The insanity is beyond understanding.

I hope I'm still around when the shite hits the fan when we leave.
I don't mean here in the uk, we will be fine. I'm referring to the 73 seats that will be vacant. The powers that be in the eu want those seats filled with 'europeans' not 'country' representatives. The visegrad group want more representation in the parliament, as do Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece.
I think the proverbial is really going to hit the fan then can't wait.