Westminster and sexual harassment

For me the key to whether these, admittedly sleazy, incidents are abuse or not is not necessarily about the action per se, but about whether there was an imbalance of power in the relationship. As an employee one's boss usually has the power in the relationship, and for an aspiring musician or actor it is the producer/director etc.

As a 15/16 year old working for a leading firm of Manchester solicitors one of my bosses called me into his office in front of his clerks and other colleagues and asked me to comment on a glossy magazine featuring bestiality. I was frozen in fear and shock so I stood there whilst he went through the pages one by one as I mumbled 'I don't know' as he asked my opinion and questioned me about the photographs. Eventually one of the female secretaries, who like the others thought it was hilarious sport, took pity on me and and told me to go. I felt abused and I have no doubt that my boss, who later became a judge, abused his position of power to humiliate me in a sexualised way.

We are not discussing women going to men’s hotel rooms here - this hasn’t been brought up on this thread re the goings on in Parliament. It’s more about the general sexuslised culture that has been far too accepted there. For years and years, when women MPs stood up to speak, male MPs regularly made gestures that mimicked holding breasts. This didn’t happen in a hotel room, no woman invited this ( except of course by being so flagrant as to have breasts) and no one did anything about it. Clare Short was particularly mocked but I don’t recall any male MPs speaking up to support her

I was once having dinner and was surprised to feel a heavy hand on my knee. I glared at my host and grabbed the 'hand' only to find that it was the friendly paw of his huge cat!
Sorry. Wandering off the point but that was my only experience of wandering hands.
All this is nothing new of course. Old debutantes used to warn each other of men who were NST - not safe in a taxi!

I agree Jane about the broad spectrum. There’s behavioir that is clearly criminal ( I’ve just been listening to PM about the young woman who alleges she was raped at a Labour event) and then there’s behaviour which constitutes sexual harassment or is sexualised in other ways. I agree that women should stand up for themselves in an ideal world but that differentials in power, status,age can impact on their ability to do that. However, even if a woman does stand up for herself, she should then report the unacceptable behaviour because no one knows what else has gone on because things have gone unreported by those who felt they couldn’t, or did but weren’t listened to or who just gave in their notice and walked away. Men should not be behaving like this, full stop and it’s their behaviour that has to change

A girl being pawed by a lech is so wrong and can be so distressing. A woman trots along to a mans hotel room and doesn't know it's a stupid thing to do ? cannot be compared

It all seems to be such a broad spectrum from sexualised banter to outright rape. It's hard to generalise somehow. It depends on the people involved, their relative positions and the specific situations.
Any young actress going alone to an impresario's hotel room then being surprised at what happens is one thing being called sugar tits is another.
I'd think the young actress must have been incredibly naive and that the MPs secretary must have been amazingly complacent to have gone along with that shopping trip and to put up with that language.
No. Nobody should feel sexually harassed at work or anywhere else but women can stand up for themselves and think for themselves too.

It is more than that. Imagine that happening in any other profession!! It smacks of corruption and yuk.

Utterly unacceptable, and should be stopped immediately.

It’s been known for years that whips keep little black books - what’s unacceptable is if anything such as sexual harassment or criminal behaviour is not acted upon and just kept for what in effect is ‘blackmail’.

primrose Yes that’s right - sleazy and unprofessional.

ww I think all party whips use leverage over their MPs

Affairs are different - the issues under discussion now are about uninvited and unwanted physical contact, sexualised remarks etc. I’ve had my knees touched in the dim and distant past by many a young man but always in situations where it was part of an already ongoing relationship.

Wow if my DH had put his hand in someone’s knee at any stage of our marriage (50 years) he would have known it was unacceptable and I would be cross. So it is nonsense to say that it has ever been acceptable - of course it hasn’t.

I thought JHB was having dinner with him? It was 2002 -hardly the dark ages- of course decent men knew behaviour like that was not acceptable then in that type of scenario. How could anyone think that men didn’t know that then? Perhaps you should grow up

Affairs are of course not against the law, but a Tory Party member who assisted Cameron said that affairs are recorded by the whips along with anything else they can hold over MPs and are used to bribe MPs to vote a certain way. As I said, what sleaze bags, how unprofessional how unpleasant.

If it were a one-off (and how would you know if no one is reporting it) then certainly sacking seems a bit harsh - but naming and shaming is absolutely fine. He’s only admitted it now because it’s come out hasn’t he? JHB could cope with him but what if it had been a young research assistant that had to keep on interacting with him daily? I think we should be very careful of dismissing or minimising something because it happened a long time ago, or it was only once, or he said sorry, or the woman wasn’t ‘harmed’. We are making huge assumptions if we believe that. And how about ‘sugar tits’ and being told to buy sex toys?

Do grow up maryeliza, I couldn't care less if it comes back to the news that Corbyn showed nude photographs of Abbot many years ago, I don't care if he touched her knee all those years ago. I agree with .Hartley Brewer, it's a witch hunt.

We have moved on, and men are now aware knee touching is not acceptable .

When are women going to take responsibility for their decisions, accepting an invite to a mans room is damn stupid , I knew this in the sixties.

I don't think they should lose their jobs in cases like this one, but it would be nice if they acknowledge, like Michael Fallon has, that what they did was wrong, and they won't be doing it again. At least he seems to know that he acted like a sleazebag.
If these things keep on being treated as non news, then how is the culture ever to change?

Mind you I would also have used my knee for something else in that situation?

annie are you wilfully not getting the point? It was unacceptable behaviour regardless of whether it affected her adversely or not. Also the chances are that it is unlikely he only ever did this once. What a pity it wasn’t JC because then you could have had a field day. It’s just NOT ok for this to have happened - what a sleaze bag he is. I would have had to scrub my knee for weeks afterwards with carbolic.

I'm not a fan of affairs, but that's not against the law or a workplace code of conduct - there's consent on both sides. It's the abuse of power that I object to.
They are elected into office, their job gives them power and we expect them to make good judgements in our interest. If they've shown they abuse that power through lack of judgement or self-control, then they are not fit to be an MP.
I hope the media manage to keep their focus. It's not a sleazy sex story in my opinion.

Hopefully it will contribute to breaking down the culture where it is acceptable for powerful men to exploit their position to hit on women around them.

In recent years we’ve had the expenses scandal, cash for questions, drunken behaviour, scandal of various sorts and now sexual harassment with the knowledge that a Little Black book of affairs, sexual scandals etc. is kept by the whips to force people to support the government.

What a shower, how unprofessional, how undeserving of respect and support.

I now find all this rather boring, so a man touched a womans knee in 2002.

She sorted him out, has not been in therapy for fifteen years, is not damaged, he shouldn't have done it but must it be news

Rosina Yes, you're brave to start the topic and I certainly hope people's opinions are not shot down in flames. I think JHB showed a strong rebuff from a strong woman. My understanding is that she didn't choose to tell, the story was published without her input, but I could be wrong. That incident is not worth reporting in my opinion as she dealt with it to her satisfaction at the time.
I do think that there are several MPs across all parties who sexually harass people. I'd like them all sacked.
So many people who work in parliament know who they are and do nothing, which I think will be a bigger problem. I can see this blowing up to be as large as the expenses scandal.
I also think there will be a few false accusations thrown at people who they (either their own party or others) want to get rid of.

She didn't make a claim, she told of her experience but did not name the man. He then admitted that it was him and apologised.