Let's not Forget Brexit(2)

I did read the European Report which also makes interesting reading. I'm almost ashamed of our government's efforts which aren't properly laid out. I have found that most Brexiteers remain convinced of their case though they cannot explain it. I don't want a second referendum but democratically it is probably necessary. Providing the young vote and the existing remainers stick to their guns we should ExitBrexit with a decisive majority

To quote from the preface of Nick Clegg's book "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy" said by David Davis, MP.

Even the Daily Mail is drifting in our direction judging by its coolness towards Brexit. The further into Brexit we get the less feasible it becomes.

ah I see ;)

Interesting to see who bankrolled Brexit.
Fits in with the thread on wealth.

What the link shows is that many Brexiteers are beginning to change their minds, unlike those on Gransnet, who seem to be digging in deeper.

From DJ: 'Fortunately Brexiteers on Gransnet do not appear to be representative of Brexiteers as whole.'

well course -and no-one here ever said otherwise. But statistics have clearly shown that there were clear differences in all sorts of ways in how peope voted overall- and level of education was certainly a striking one.

As for Unis versus Polytechnics - I chose to go to the Poly because their courses were so much more dynamic and u to date, and not taught by Old Foggies with yellow wads of notes on medieval studies- so stuck in their ways. So did both of our daughters, including the one with very high Grades- and neither regretted it and it has served them extremely well.

I've just found a draft of their impact report. A bit jumbled and with no page numbers. 25 pages in all.

Impact Report

It needs to be checked to make sense. But it doesn't encourage Brexit.

Fortunately Brexiteers on Gransnet do not appear to be representative of Brexiteers as whole.
All we need are 4% to change their minds.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/voters-fears-nhs-brexit-1-5262348

The EU offered the UK three extra sessions to get things sorted a bit better.
The UK did not respond.
Then earlier in the week, Davis said that the UK had offered the EU extra sessions.
Now this.

What is he playing at?
Why is Davis not on the list, considering what he said to Diane Abbott?

Brussels are astonished over Davis who rather than continuing with talks next week in order to progress ASAP, Davis wants to take stock!!

Hasn’t he been paying attention? Probably too busy gossiping about Sextender and the list of 40 Tory MPs.

Do you read The New European, Cindersdad?
There's a list of 48 questions that Brexiteers should answer.
Unfortunately, none of the Brexiteers on here would, as they seem quite happy to leave the actual leaving up to others.

'A survey of more than 600 businesses, representing nearly a quarter of the 4-million strong workforce of the country’s food chains, suggested that nearly a third of UK food and drink businesses have had EU27 workers leave their employment since the Brexit vote. Almost half said more workers planned to leave because of uncertainty about their future.

Those statistics prompted the sector to warn of a significant disruption and economic damage if the government failed to stem the flow of those leaving the UK.'

I've read through the thread and see we are as divided as ever. Few of us have changed our minds since the referendum but we have seen ominous signs of the likely effect. The pound probably was overvalued considering the underlying economy. We do, however, need to recognize that the EU is our main trading partner and we no longer have a special relations with the US or the Commonwealth. As we are we can control immigration within the EU like other countries do. Brexit seems to be cracking at the seems on several fronts, when the Impact Statements are published as the government has promised the way forward may be clarified. We cannot simply ExitBrexit purely because the "52%" would be up in arms even though many leading Brexiteers have gone quiet but we should probably have a second referendum this time based on facts if possible. Many of us older voters voted Leave to the consternation of our younger peers. Sadly a portion of older voters have since passed away and more of us will likely succumb before we actually leave that alone could well turn the tide; sorry to be morbid but such is the pattern of life.

In the EU we can influence things outside it we may not be able to return with terms as good as we have now. There are faults in the EU and in Westminster which need addressing.

I would like PR and a second referendum to help make Government more representative and much less divisive. The prospect of a large majority for either Tory or Labour does not make for Strong and Stable Government where as a coalition in the nation interest does. Think what the Tories would have done without the moderating influence of the LibDems 2010-15.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/04/uk-has-conceded-over-cut-off-date-for-eu-nationals-brussels-brexit-rights

Another problem that Brexit has caused, and fortunately provided some relief for those living here now.
Not sure if it will make any more EU citizens want to come here before March 2019, which is obviously the intention.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/coded-warning-chilling-witchhunt-1-5262284

It also looks as though there is not a single agreement type that the UK would want to sign up to.
Maybe we should have a referendum on that!
Put in order of preference.

So is figure 4 on the same page, and the paragraphs above it on the number of migrants in the EU and the UK.
Over 2 million of EU migrants in the UK are workers, with very few pensioners.
If most of our pensioners returned after Brexit, we would really be in trouble.

Page 20 is interesting, about the fact that if we wish to trade with the EU we will probably have to pay money in anyway, although obviously not as much.
We can't be part of the single market like Norway.

Interesting that those are 2015 figures, Maizie.
I wonder if the outcome would have been different if they had been known before the referendum.

Thanks Maizie.

Oops Link:

www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/595374/IPOL_STU(2017)595374_EN.pdf

The abstract of the EU Assessment document, published March 2017:

This paper, managed by the Policy Department on Economic and Scientific Policies for the Committee on Internal Market and Consumer Protection, assesses the likely impact of Brexit on EU27, together with some scenarios for the terms of the UK’s secession. For the EU 27, the losses are found to be virtually insignificant, and hardly noticed in the aggregate. By contrast, for the UK, the losses could be highly significant, over ten times greater as a share of GDP. Impacts on various Member States – in particular Ireland – and sectors in the EU27 could be more pronounced.

For the EU 27, the losses are found to be virtually insignificant,

What happened to 'they need us more than we need them'?

Why are we so ill-governed? Why is our productivity so low? Why is our political class so deeply unimpressive?

Good questions. The EU not to blame for thevast majority of issues put at its gate so, if we leave, they will all still be there. Then what?

infacts.org/brexit-infantilism-based-delusions-lost-greatness/

Delusions of lost greatness fits very well.

That will be interesting.

I'm not sure I agree with bringing back an old Labour case that was actually dealt with at the time.

Not the only papers that the Tories don't want to publish. The speaker has had to ask them to give him their policies on sexual harassment.

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/02/tories-to-be-forced-to-publish-sexual-harassment-policies-by-speaker