British workers are among the worst idlers in the world

Anyone who says statistics can prove the truth knows nothing about statistics. Statistics deals fundamentally in probabilities and whether things are more or less likely to happen. It’s because most people including obviously Canning don’t understand that basic point that people say such stupid things about statistics.

There were lots of relationships between voting and other characteristics of which educational level was only one- others included age, sex, geographical area, usual party vote. Education in some surveys is measured by the highest qualification you achieved, others by the age you finished formal education. It would be impossible to measure people’s intelligence in a survey ( or probably any other way really) so they do the best they can. Whatever we think of this, there is no dispute that there is a relationship between educational level and referendum vote. Whatever that means

Salt and butter, please.
Norah - despite being told for years that butter was bad for us we were then told that in fact it is not.

However, scientists now say again that butter is indeed bad for us:
The findings come from a study of 120,000 people by scientists at Harvard University's School of Public Health, in Boston.

I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
George Canning

The nature of each person counts too - some will only vote for what they think will benefit them personally while others will look at the overall good of the community and maybe a different age group to their own. I am speaking generally about elections here not specifically about one vote.

Perhaps nothing else was considered, other than educations, when there may be more valid under causes. Poverty and money to my mind.

No one is saying you can’t Norah the point being made is the relationship ( causal or not) between level of educational achievement and voting Leave or Remain

I have no education beyond 16 years, DH only to 18 years. That doesn't mean we can't think, reason, hold opinions, or vote as we see fit.

I think PR would have a great effect on Parliament holding governments to account maryeliza. Not that I can see that happening in the near future, sadly.

Additionally - it is the role of Parliament to hold the Government to account not just the Opppsition. Some Tory MPs do that such as SW.

Simply getting angry with things does not equate to holding the government to account you know, that is the job of Labour in Parliament.

You're extraordinarily passive, lemon. Do you really think that your vote is the only form of political expression you have? And that after that you just sit back and let Parliament get on with it?

Politics is as much about people as about what goes on in Parliament. Democracy doesn't come to a stop after a vote, whether in a GE or a referendum; it is perfectly legitimate for people to discuss current affairs and to make their views known in whichever legal way they chose.

The best way, of course is by lobbying MP s and Ministers. We are supposed to have a representative democracy which considers all views; our representatives can't represent us if they don't know what we want.

Good post Jaycee and well said.

* Varian* do not fall into the easy trap of thinking that anybody who voted Leave on GN is a DM reader.
This is another common insult flung about too readily on here.

It is quite clear maryeliza that throwing around insults at the 17 plus Leave voters trying to cite ‘uneducated’ At every opportunity does the Remain voters no favours.
We are Leaving, who are ‘the group of losers’ supposed to be, hmm?
Simply getting angry with things does not equate to holding the government to account you know, that is the job of Labour in Parliament.Nobody cares what posters on GN says about it.

The anti-EU propaganda relentlessly trumpetted by the DE, DM and Sun for years and years had a powerful effect. The readers of these papers tend to be people with lower levels of education.

There is no denying thses two facts, even if the DM reading brexiteers on GN do have double firsts from Cambridge. I doubt whether many of them have degrees in statistics.

Suzied that is a very useful explanation - sadly probably not to be read by those taking offence where no such thing is given.

I do not believe that the "lies, damn lies" is helpful as it proposes and untruth. Statistics, those inanimate figures, cannot lie, only people can. So it is the way people use the statistics and why they use them in that way that needs careful watching not the statistics themselves.

Simplified the stats relating to education and voting in the referendum are:
Of those who left school at 15/16 - 3 out of 4 voted 'out'.
Of those who achieved the equivalent of 'A' - 50/50 in/out
Of with Higher Education - 3 out of 4 voted in

So Education did play a part. It is what part they played that is interesting. I found Suzied's point "So older people with higher education more likely to vote remain than older people without." gives us something to think about.

My feeling is that those whose life had been or would be influenced by lower (I wish there was another word but there isn't) education levels believe what we had does not work in their favour and, they may possibly believe it works or has worked, against them. On the other side those who life had been or would be influenced by higher education levels did believe that what we had worked for them.

I could be wrong, any interpretation could be wrong but if I am right we need to work out how the country can work for all - and I do not believe Brexit will, or was even intended to do that by those leading the campaign.

MaizieD Of course I am aware of right wing Brexit views (you don't have to be so patronising).
People can have different reasons for doing the same thing. That would be an absurd reason to change my vote. I went into the ballot box alone and no one else's behaviour reflects on me just because we voted the same way on one issue.

I am surprised that anyone is surprised that this is the way Patel views British workers. This women is part of the far-right scum who have risen to the surface of the Tory party over recent years and she shares their neoliberal view of economics.

The problem with our productivity has little to do with the people working in it. Three things are creating the problems. Firstly it is because of poor management and the idea large swaths of our society continue to believe that management and leadership requires charisma rather than education, knowledge and experience. This keeps productivity down.

Secondly in is because of poor investment. Money earned is off-shored, saved and hidden; it is not reinvested in improving our industry. This keeps productivity down.

Thirdly it is the idea that the first two can be cured by some sort of puritanical attitude to work. This is something the older generation seem particularly attached to and yet we are one of the longest hours economies but we do not see a rise in productivity because of it. Lazy workers' are certainly not the problem.

Is this anything to do with Brexit? In my view yes. It is basically the same group of neoliberal Tories who have driven us into leaving. These people do not believe in business or a widely successful economy, they only believe in some people getting very rich. This is why they wanted Brexit. Sadly the corollary to that fact is that in order for some to get very rich larger numbers will also need to be very poor and the country will not be run for the best for all.

When studying statistics, one of the first things you learn is about sampling. When critiquing a research project, that is the first thing you will evaluate - the sample and how it was obtained including non response and drop out rates. No one( except a DM journalist) would take a piece of research seriously that based its results on a sample taken from one small subset of a wider population unless of course it was research just on that sub sample and that was clear in the write up.

Oh dear lemon still ‘getting het up’ about the fact that leaving is not going according to plan? That so much is coming out about the problems, that the negotiations are being handled so badly - I suppose it’s hard to have to admit that you support such a group of losers. By ‘not getting over it’ remain voters at all levels are trying to improve what is going to happen and not just shrugging their shoulders. And how do you get to the phrase ‘superiority complex’ ? Stating the FACT that remain voters statistically have a higher level of education is not being superior - it is stating a fact.Perhaps you ought to get over that and stop ‘getting so het up’.

Of course, which is why those compliling statistical evidence which they wish to generalise to a large population would ensure they use a balanced sample of that population. They wouldn’t just survey a narrow sample from one area, age or background. Academic Social science may be a soft science in terms of causality, but scientific principles of objectivity and observable evidence should ensure that social statistics from a reliable survey has some validity.

And you lemon frequently post DM level rubbish which when challenged leads you to make personal comments because you are clearly incapable of explaining why you post false and misleading information - I’d rather care about the truth and be accused of ‘getting het up’ than post lies and rubbish.

I think it’s high time that posters with a superiority complex about the ‘education’ of Leave voters realised that no matter how many insults they toss around, we are leaving the EU.
Time to get over it.

Haha maryeliza you do easily get het up ( as usual)
And as for JC indeed, he inspired the young to vote for him as he promised no tuition fees amongst other things and they see him as an anti establishment rebellious figure.
He still didn’t manage to win though.

Surely it is how and where the statistics are collated. I can go to one area of the city and ask "should we control immigration" and the statistics will reveal that the majority of people will say no. I can then go to another part of the city and ask the same question and the statistics will reveal the opposite.

There was that lovely joke about MG when he was at Education - Michael thinks that the plural of anecdote is data.