British workers are among the worst idlers in the world

Disraeli was wrong - what happens with statistics is that the media is full of people who have ‘arts’ degrees of one type or another who simply do not understand statistics and therefore are incapable of reporting such information accurately or intelligently and anyway have to try and sell papers with misleading headlines.

suzie that’s an excellent post - a very clear explanation

lemon I don’t know where you get the information from that almost everybody goes to university - it’s just not true. I also dislike your condescending attitude towards what some people study where. As usual your post is in DM territory where myth after myth thrives on the reporting of fictitious degree courses which , if properly examined are often mush more relevant to today’s society than for example, Classics at Oxbridge. In addition, studying for a degree is about far more than the subject matter but about developing skills, ability to assimilate, analyse information and knowledge, think for yourself. You really don’t like the fact do you that statistically, better educated people were more likely to vote remain. As for JC, he inspired the young which another Labour leader almost certainly wouldn’t have.

OBVIOUSLY That is why Britain called for help from other countries after the war

English people do not wish to do manual jobs and although always go on about immigrants taking over I really do not know what state the UK would be without immigrants!!

Didn't Disraeli say "there are three kind of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics"

I don't understand those who take every opportunity to talk down British workers. We are no different from any other nationality, we have very hard workers, we have those who just go through the motions and we have the scroungers - just like every other country.

Someone with a double first from a top ranking university should be aware that anecdotal evidence does not override or undermine statistical significance.

Someone with a double first from a top ranking university shouldn't need to have that pointed out! Thanks for treading where I didn't dare, suzied

Then improve leadership to inspire the managers and the workers to serve their customers with alacrity.

Managers remain responsible for hastening the rate at which work adds value for customers.

All should be focused on their system for responsibly achieving sustained success.

...not sniping at each other.

Someone with a double first from a top ranking university should be aware that anecdotal evidence does not override or undermine statistical significance.
I,e. “All my friends have PhDs and voted leave therefore the statistical evidence regarding voting and education levels must be inaccurate”. The statistical evidence is not that “ everyone who voted remains had higher levels of education ‘ its just that there was a significant correlation between the 2 variables. This is even the same when age is included in the analysis. So older people with higher education more likely to vote remain than older people without. ( yes we know leave voters on here may all have PhDs, but they should know statistical significance does not mean 100%)The same goes throughout the age groups. Education levels not the same as intelligence. Unless we all take standardised intelligence tests before voting that isn’t going to be supported statistically. Also, correlations do not prove a causal link, so having a higher level of education does not cause you to vote a certain way, there are many variables which contribute to voting behaviour. But merely to claim the statistics wrong because all your friends don’t follow that pattern is weak evidence. I could say “all miy friends have degrees, are over 60 and all voted remain” but that only shows that I might be friends with like- minded people who share similar demographic traits.

That’s because, as already discussed, for a lot of years now almost everybody goes to some kind of University, not because they are amazingly clever, but because it’s become the thing to do, even if your grades are bad and you study
Soap Operas at Preston Uni.I would not bet too highly that they are all well educated.
This ( thick people voted Leave) is just a slur on over 17 and a half million people, put about happily by unhappy Remainers who simply cannot get over the fact that we will be leaving the EU.

Does it really puzzle you?
Not enough voters wanted Corbyn as PM, that’s why.Had they had another Leader ( almost any other) Labour would have won hands down.

As far as the statistics go, newnanny Remain voters included a higher proportion of people educated to degree level than did Leave. This isn't to say that no Leave voters were educated to degree level, just that there were far fewer of them. So education level did play a part.

but for some reason people did not take the opportunity to vote them out.

That has always really puzzled me, too. Especially as the conditions many appeared to be voting 'against' in the EU referendum were the result of tory policies and nothing to do with the EU.

But, as we discovered when we were discussing the June GE, people can be just as irrational, or seemingly blind to their own interests, when voting in a General Election.

I am one of the roughly 40% of Labour supporters who voted Leave so you are wrong on the right wing point too so far as some of us are concerned.

I wasn't really thinking of party politics in my original post; just speculating that people who voted Leave might have agreed with right wingers' judgements. Of course, they may well have been quite unaware of them (though I'd be surprised if a Labour voter didn't have a 'view' of right wing thought, based on their experience of right wing governments)

I have two degrees and voted leave. My DH also. Boris is very educated and voted leave. It has nothing to do with education.

MaizieD and what is in it for cheerleaders for Remain like Goldman Sachs? They of course always work for the greater good.
I am one of the roughly 40% of Labour supporters who voted Leave so you are wrong on the right wing point too so far as some of us are concerned. I very much doubt that anyone read Priti's book before the referendum.
Tories have always had a snobbish attitude to the average working person and always will. It is a shame that they are in charge of Brexit but for some reason people did not take the opportunity to vote them out.

If you judge people by the company that you assume that they keep, and assume that that company is full of right wing thickos, then you are bigoted.

I think the company is right wing, but not the 'thickos' bit. I was thinking more that they might well be agreeing with the judgement of Patel and her co-authors. A judgement which seems to me to be sweeping and unfair as there are other factors which affect productivity. It also makes you wonder about the sincerity of the tory's claim to be on the side of 'hardworking people' if they don't actually believe that the British are hardworking.

As for 'gullible', just look at the major cheerleaders for Brexit. What's in it for them? They most of them seem to be extreme rightwingers with an eye to making a profit from deregulation, 'shrinking the state' and promoting a low wage, low taxation economy.

www.globalresearch.ca/how-brexit-was-engineered-by-foreign-billionaires-to-bring-about-economic-chaos-for-profit/5614194/amp

Salt and butter, please.

paddyann I don't know what you mean by different level of education, sounds very snobbish to me. I am a leaver and proud of it, I want our government to control our borders, I am all for a reduction in the amount of foreign Nationals allowed to settle here. Oh, I nearly forgot, I went to University, Cambridge actually, a Double First.
I've just seen your post MinniesMum, great minds think alike.

Day6 is the best post I have ever read on here. She or he is absolutely right in what they say. Todays kids go to university as a matter of course. Thanks to the Labour Party and especially Tony Blair. It is how they come out of university and what they do that matters.

Lemongrove you coudn't have put my thoughts better. Thank you.

When we were caring for my Grandad, we had to employ help. Without exception, the Philippine workers really took the job to heart, would do far more than they were employed to do and really thought about their patient. Equally the English workers kept an eye on their watches and were usually ready to leave 15 minutes before they were due to finish. At the end, the English would not give any truck to having their hours or workplace adjusted whilst the Philippine girls were more than happy. I found it rather sad but I think it is a cultural thing. Obviously this is just one small part of things but I see it replicated across hospitals, service industries, et. Regardless of whatever I feel about Brexit, I would like to see more of a culture hardworking from the British.
It is also interesting about Uni education. Years ago, a good set of A levels would get you into the Civil Service as an Executive Officer or other public services but nowadays, you need a degree. Having attended Uni in the 80's, watched my husband attend in the 90's and my children attend in the Noughties, I have to say it is my impression that the standards have dropped somewhat. It isn't our children's fault, it is the system. Recently my SIL got a first at University. He is, quite frankly, illiterate and we were astonished. I just shudder to think what the company who employed him thought once he actually wrote them a report! Let's just say I read his Facebook posts with my deciphering head on!

Hope this thread doesn't make it on to F.B. Some very biased views!!

I think saying British workers are lazy is a bit of a generalisation. Some are, some aren't - the same as the rest of the world but I think the UK's welfare system does discourage people from working full time as they see they can get their wages topped up with tax credits and other benefits.

Although I voted for Brexit, I do sneakingly admire some of the young Europeans who have made the effort to seek a new life here and are working hard and valued by employers. However, I am very against those who have not paid into the system receiving benefits when they have not contributed to the capital costs e.g. building of hospitals in the first place. That applies to our own home grown lot as well as foreigners. They may well pay some taxes in the future but that just supports on the going costs.

How can you generalise? [astonished]

Yes please Cherrytree, as long as it's salted

Sorry...got carried away and just realised my post has nothing to do with the thread. Apologies
I have to agree with lovebeigecardigans..we are all different.
However,I have noticed that different races have their own 'momentum'.
Historically we are rather 'laid back .That is until we are pushed...then 'God help 'em'!
Generally speaking each race does indeed live up to its own reputation because, historically,they have earned that reputation but that doesn't mean that within that nation each are tarred with the same brush.
The internet and general speed of communication today will have a great influence on changing all that.

You can't tar all British workers with the same brush. I've worked with foreign workers and British and Irish workers in health care. They were all different. Some of the foreign workers were lazy and did the least amount of work possible - and so were some of the Brits. It was entirely down to attitude.
My DH worked for a French firm - he was considered one of their best workers, while some of the French were lazy and bolshie - striking at drop of a hat. All different.

The one thing I have never heard talk about,with our relationship to the rest of Europe ,is the fact that we are an island nation.
That makes a huge difference to our national psyche.
When speaking to French,German and Belgium people over the years, the one thing they all have in common is the fact that they feel neighbourly to each other.
They all regularly 'pop' over to one or the other countries and it's no big thing for them.
For us it has always been an event. Even now with the Tunnel it's certainly not straightforward.
We will always be 'that fortress set in a silver sea '. That's what makes us different.