British workers are among the worst idlers in the world

I know this is off thread, but I must take issue with Welshwife’s statement about the downgrading of degrees being linked to the bestowing of university status on to polytechnics. I had the benefit of studying for one year at a university, but had to start again at a polytechnic when my husband had to move jobs. The teaching, syllabus and course were far superior at the polytechnic. I never felt I was in a second best institution. I agree it may have been widened too far now when nearly every higher education institution is deemed a university.

I think the fact that she said it 5 year ago is irrelevant. Since then, has she expressed a different opinion or said that she was mistaken in her comment? Has she suddenly decided that the reason productivity is relatively low compared to many other European countries is because of under investment, poor management/worker relationships, with workers generally have no stake or say in what happens in their places of work, etc. etc?

It's interesting that, as others have pointed out, she was a great champion of leaving the EU and yet it appears she has no faith in or respect for British workers en masse. I can only assume then that her enthusiasm for breaking away from the EU was to rid the UK of "red tape", i.e. proper health and safety conditions, protection of workers' rights, etc. etc. and escalate policies already adopted that squeeze working people until the pips squeak.

And Priti Patel is one of the many people whose previous jobs are what I would describe as non-productive non-jobs that do little to enhance society such as lobbyists, marketing and PR executives, etc. etc. Her Wikipaedia entry includes this information:

" She worked for the public relations consultancy firm Weber Shandwick for several years, as part of which she lobbied for the tobacco and alcohol industries" and goes on to say:

"Patel has been criticised by political opponents for defending the tobacco and alcohol industries".

Hardly a glowing example of someone who has made a great contribution to society.

This debate is surprisingly similar to the many debates that we're having right here in the US. In the 2016 election, many people were dissatisfied with the status quo, and so they voted for someone who they perceived as an outsider who could tip the odds against the so called 'Establishment'.

Statistically, the majority of voters who elected Trump were NOT college educated. The remaining number of voters in the same demographic pool had a higher education to varying degrees (no pun intended).

Many voters in the US are now having severe buyer's remorse and are beginning to come out and admit they made a mistake. Others loathe that they were duped and stubbornly invent lame excuses for every stupidity. In that respect, having a college degree or not doesn't make a lick of difference!

Our low productivity is because we have relatively low investment in the sort of things that raise productivity: new machine tools, new information technology, new skills training. And the reason we have relatively low investment is because it has been cheaper for employers to hire additional staff (usually skilled or semi-skilled, usually from abroad) than to invest in things that would enable the existing staff to produce more. This state of affairs may well change with Brexit. Japan, which has a labour shortage and refuses to have mass immigration, invests in robot and other technology, even in places like care homes. I bet their workers are paid more than ours too.

MaizieD If you judge people by the company that you assume that they keep, and assume that that company is full of right wing thickos, then you are bigoted.
It sounds a bit like guilt by association - which is generally considered to be a bad thing by the educated.
Given a choice between spending time with the late Tony Benn or Priti Patel, I would choose the former and decline the latter. I would be quite happy in his company or that of Dennis Skinner. Richard Branson, not so much.

Schools and Universities need to be taking responsibility and saying to young people at the beginning whether or not they are suitable for a University course and getting a qualification which will enable them to gain employment. There are other routes to qualifications and good jobs besides a degree gained by going straight to University after school.
We have examples of all these sorts of things in our family and being suited to the career you choose is very important. Young people need helpful advice as to their best course of action for their own abilities and circumstances. Suitable training on a job you enjoy is important too and progression possibilities rather than just knowing you are stuck in a depressing dead end job.

Leaving aside the Brexit issues - Are British workers among the worst idlers in the world?
Sometimes when we talk about the 'British Workforce' it's as if we are talking about a great unknown amorphous body. Remember we all are, or have been at some time, part of the British workforce.
I have worked for many years in Education and also in IT and the financial sector. In every job I have worked in, my colleagues have worked hard and usually longer and harder than they are paid for. It has always been the norm to take work home, answer e-mails in the evening, work weekends if required etc
My only experience of working abroad was a summer's work experience in France. I worked in a shipping office. The staff arrived at 9, spent 15 minutes shaking hands with each other and catching up. At mid-day we were given luncheon vouchers to have a leisurely 3 course lunch at a local restaurant. On Fridays, work stopped at 12, the drinks cabinet was opened and we all had a convivial drink together before departing for the weekend!
Of course that doesn't mean that our productivity is better. I sometimes wonder if a lot of the 'work' colleagues rush around doing is actually unproductive. Now I am older and wiser, I do as much as I can and finish when I should without getting stressed!

It might be a 6 year old story but it has relevance today.

Shoehorning Brexit into this discussion as yet another excuse to feel superior to Leave voters is getting a bit tiresome.

I think the problem for Remain voters is that one has a tendency to judge people by the company they keep. A look at the leading Leave campaigners doesn't really throw up anyone much better than Patel. So one has to either think that Leavers must be sympathetic to the views of these leaders or they must be gullible.

Why would someone who has castigated the British as idlers be leading a campaign which virtually promised the British population that leaving the EU would give them jobs and prosperity through our hugely increased trading opportunities?

Not sure about some professions, but I feel Pritti Patel should do a night or week-end in A&E, or any NHS hospital ward, or spend a Friday ot two with a teacher in any f our State Schools

Nurses, doctors, teachers, social workers, etc, etc, in the UK work much longer hours, and have much larger numbers of patients, clients or students of anywhere in the EU. Class sizes here are around 16 to 18- 20 or 25 being practically unkown, never mind 30+.

I agree with Day6. I don't know anyone who would give any credence to anything that Priti Patel says or who doesn't think that she is dreadful. A territorial army trained Christian right winger known for being on the neo-Thatcherite vanguard of the party ... championing free market economics and a free state leading a department that she previously argued should be scrapped. Yes, just the person that people would listen to.
Shoehorning Brexit into this discussion as yet another excuse to feel superior to Leave voters is getting a bit tiresome. If you want to discuss the issues or merits, fair enough, but to start from what is essentially 'is this why people that I have decided are stupid made a stupid decision' is just keeping the debate at a low tit for tat level.
People often say that British people are lazy but of course don't include themselves in that. I worked hard and so did most of the people I worked with throughout my working life. The workmen who come to my estate at various times always work hard and don't need to have someone watching over them.

"I shall now inform the younger members of my family that their degrees are of no value (compared to yours and mine) and the fact that we have a doctor, research scientist, managers and teachers among others, is worth little."

Your family are SO bright mcem. Good for you.

My children have degrees. I am surprised one of them gained University entrance to be honest! They are doing well for themselves but their degrees were almost irrelevant. Going into the sixth form and then on to University has become the norm now and it is iniquitous imo. It's about funding and not the best interests of the student. So many are not academic but forced through hoops. A degree is now an accessory and having worked with under graduates I am shocked at how little so many know.

Obviously there are exceptions to that and some youngsters ARE academic and genuinely intelligent, but by and large a degree today is fairly meaningless. Many Universities do foundation courses galore to allow the non-academic,, those without A levels the side door into a degree course.

My point was that life has changed. Older people like us have been lambasted as being thick and gullible and influenced by Boris and Farage and a bus.

There will be many who write here who don't have academic qualifications but are far brighter than many with degrees. Our generation didn't have the same opportunities but the smear "Thickos voted to Leave" is insulting. Bright, older people with wisdom and life experience voted to leave, as did those with academic qualifications. On both side those lacking knowledge voted and were swayed by arguments.

As for the OP it's an attempt to castigate someone based on old news, a pathetic attempt to smear a Leave campaigner. As others have said, the personalities involved in the Referendum campaigns were not a significant factor in voting. I voted Leave and doubt very much if I'd ask for Boris's thoughts in any situation! Patel is now campaigning against modern day slavery and the gangs who control it. Credible work I'd say.

The Lisbon treaty made a few changes to other treaties -it was not a new one and it also gave the right to individual countries to leave the EU.

I agree about the downgrading of some degrees and much of this does stem from the upgrading of polytechnics to University status. I knew a woman who taught Law in one of these institutions and she said that they were giving people aspirations above their capabilities.

I think employers are well aware of the differences in universities and also the quality of the degree gained. I feel sorry for some of the youngsters who went to these lesser places and now find themselves in the position of owing many thousands and a job they could have been doing with no more than the qualifications they left school with.

Day6.
Excellent comments.

I voted Leave and we should have had a vote much earlier when Gordon Brown sold us out to the EU by signing the Lisbon Treaty behind our backs and without our consent having promised a referendum at that time. I certainly did not need anyone to "persuade" me whether by that stupid red bus which I didn't see anyway or the fear campaign by George Osborne..
As for being stupid - Double First from Cambridge I'm afraid. Most of my friends have degrees and also voted Leave.

"Everyman and his dog has gone to university in the last fifteen years" I read a while ago that the Manchester bomber got into Salford University with two E grade A levels. It's quite evident looking at something such as The Times University Guide which comprises of around 120 universities that some of the establishments that languish around the bottom allow applications from candidates who have just scrapped a pass in their respective subjects, I doubt whether they would have made the grade a good few years ago. Not surprisingly the drop out percentage at universities that admit such students is correspondingly high. We have such a university at my nearest large town, which was once a well thought of Polytechnic. I know a lecturer there a few years ago and at a social event he told a few of us that he had students who were incapable of structuring an essay and in his opinion they were not university material. So like Day6, I am sceptical when I hear about the younger generation who in the main voted "remain" did so because they are far better educated. That is not to say, that I think this about all graduates, but the university spectrum is considerable and clearly they are not all of the same calibre.

Regarding the overall topic about the British being lazy. The younger generation in our family who work in London put in very long hours. Doesn't Macron wish to increase the working week to 40 hours in France. I have read that in recent years, certainly in London, where many French work, the hours are far longer than those in other European countries.

The book ,partly written by Pritti Patel, may or may not be an interesting read, but has zilch to do with voting for Brexit, same goes for the MP herself.

There is a saying "common sense doesn't come with a degree". I didn't have the chance to go to university, that doesn't mean I am stupid or gullible. The degrees earned by students these days are, mostly, just as valid as those earned by those older people fortunate enough to go to university, what younger people don't have is experience.

There is wilful misunderstanding going on about Day6’s comments, a large percentage of the population now goes to University and let’s be honest, a lot of them do not become doctors, scientists, managers and teachers, but work in shops and restaurants.Many clever young people of our generation did not go to University (for social reasons) so this myth of hordes of thickos all voting to Leave the EU because they liked a slogan plastered across a bus, is exactly that, a myth.

Good on you, Day6.

I voted to remain but I thought Day6 posted an excellent post of view that I agree with.

Our alleged low productivity is due to poor management. This is what they were saying in the 1970s and it's true today. Poor communication skills, poor planning and supervision.
People routinely arriving late for work and nothing being said by the person in charge. Etc etc.

What a smug and unpleasant post Day6.
I shall now inform the younger members of my family that their degrees are of no value (compared to yours and mine) and the fact that we have a doctor, research scientist, managers and teachers among others, is worth little.
Presumably there is no link whatsoever then between their level of education and the fact they all voted to remain.

Though I'm very much in favour of Remain I admit the despite watching the news and reading papers I did not fully understand the conflicting arguments. I voted mainly on the economy and as more facts have come to light my choice was I believe correct.

Worker Idleness is not inherent but a product of the work situation. Given proper facilities and management British workers are among the best in the world.

I tend to agree that many Brexit voters were not well educated, not all of them but enough to make a difference. That is not their fault but the fault of a damaged education system and the media which manipulates them. Feeling disenfranchised and remote from government gave many a chance to revolt against the government for reasons they had not thought through.

The worst culprits were those who did not bother to vote at all. They woke up the 2017 general election when it was possibly too late.

it was said on the Wright Stuff yesterday that the people who voted leave were of a "different level of education" that they had believed all the rubbish spouted by Farage ,Johnstone and co .

I find this laughable paddyann.

Do you REALLY have to listen to biased politicians who will put their own spin on ANYTHING before you make up your mind??? Really?

That argument doesn't hold water.

The referendum was called long after people wanted out. Because people wanted to leave, for many and varied reasons, and because the EU was causing controversy, we had the referendum

From then on, people probably knew how they'd vote. I didn't need a big bus or a campaign to persuade me to vote Leave. Long before the referendum I thought we needed to get out of the EU.

To assume "thickos" were persuaded by politicians is again patronising and if you haven't read the arguments regarding educational attainment with regard to the ages of voters then you haven't really thought much about your post.

Every man and his dog has gone to University in the last fifteen years. Now in my 60s I was one of the first generation of working class women to access University education..or indeed further education. That explains the youth vote being 'more educated'. They are not. They may have qualifications but their education can be sadly lacking. The older generation didn't get the opportunities to advance their education as young people get today.

Many however trained in work and got vocational qualifications, experience and knowledge as they worked. Many are extremely wise, not doddering racist old fools as many Remainers like to portray them. Most are far from stupid.

Not only that, wisdom is a far greater asset than examination passes.

Politicians campaigned and you were with them or against them but not because of the campaigns. The decision to leave was made long before any campaigns.

Stop imagining people who don't share your views are gullible or stupid. It's really condescending.