I see the EU Remainers' PROJECT FEAR is alive and well.

Another thing I've just realised; I haven't even thought about or asked about whether my three month old grandson is Spanish or British. I will now promptly forget about it again, because it doesn't matter until everything's decided.

It will be especially true of the younger generation, I think, because they have grown up with it.

Many years ago I looked into becoming a British citizen only to discover that I would then lose my Swedish citizenship. Years later Sweden allowed dual citizenship but by then both the UK and Sweden had joined the EU and we were all EU citizens. That was enough for me. I don't want to sound negative but at the moment I don't feel I want to become a British citizen. I'm so angry about this whole business. I shall wait and see what the final outcome is regarding EU nationals in the UK. I have an 'indefinite leave to remain' status but after Brexit I'll need to apply for 'settled status'. O tempora o mores!

Yes, Mamie, I think that's it. There was no need to even consider UK citizenship because we were all Europeans. The UK and Denmark were exactly the same, joining at the same time, no Euro, European passports.
They haven't changed; the UK has, and become nastier in the process.

I wonder if it is because some people feel that they are genuinely European citizens - I think my son would probably say that. My DiL and the grandchildren are Spanish and I don't think it bothers him at all that he isn't.

Have you read this, jura?

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/11/29/brexit-why-i-refuse-to-apply-for-british-citizenship

Rules change, though, Jura.
My grandson had to take his mother's nationality, despite being born in York, which made him Danish. His sister, five years younger and born in the UK, could have UK citizenship.
In Denmark, they have not had dual nationality, although I think they can now. So their laws changed as well as ours.
If my daughter in law had taken UK nationality she would have been required to give up her Danish birthright, which she didn't want to do.
There was no problem until Brexit reared its ugly head.

Oh I know Mamie. But for many, not taking up dual nationality is a choice - this is not a criticism on my part- but I do often wonder why that choice is made.

For me, for instance, it was very important to have the same nationality as that of my OH and children - and also for voting reasons (even though in the end my vote has never ever counted- apart from local elections).

Not everyone can have dual nationality Jura. My son would have to give up his British nationality in Spain.
I think a lot of people haven't done it because they have not needed to in the EU.
We are still thinking about it and collecting paperwork, but are happy to have the titres de séjour for the moment.

Views feelings ? What about facts Day6, never mind 'proof'.

Project fear is alive and well because, one by one, and some more on top, are coming to roost, thick and fast.

So, never mind 'proof' - give me one, just one- good and solid fact that has so far shown Brexit to have a positive outcome on 'normal' people. Just one - please.

Would you not be able to have dual nationality? And if so- may I ask why you chose not to acquire British Nationality?

I acquired it 4 years after moving to UK- as I felt it was very important to being fully integrated with the rest of my British family.

My problem, for all my voting life - has been the First Past the Post system - which basically mant that I knew, every single time, that my vote woul go straight in the bin.

Yes - that fact was a disgrace when you consider those were the people most likely to be affected.

Not to mention the UK citizens living in the EU longer than 15 years who didn't get a vote either. Some of these will still be required to pay UK tax on their pensions.
I don't know about all EU countries but French nationals in other EU countries keep their French vote.

You are right, varian. As a EU citizen, living in the UK for 45 years, I have only been able to vote in local elections. There were 3 million of us who were not eligible to vote in the Referendum. Most of us would have voted Remain.

If they refused to pay tax because they were not allowed to vote, they would be sent back to their country of origin, though, varian.

They have never had the right to vote in general elections, nor the EU referendum, although they might have been paying vat, income tax etc for twenty years or more. Whatever happened to "no taxation without representation"?

Yes, I read that, Welshwife.
What the UK has offered EU citizens who live here is far short of the rights they have now.
They will even lose the right to vote in local elections, although they are all paying council tax.

Day 2 of the advent calendar of stuff we didn’t vote for

The £ is 13% lower against the euro than before the referendum

I thought I posted about Citizens rights yesterday but maybe not - a UK MEP posted a video from Brussels saying about a fair offer etc and the Eu would not do that and blaming the Eu for the impasse.
Then I saw a letter posted which was written by Guy Verhofstadt to Michel Barnier and was his account of the same meeting. On Citizens rights he mentions that the UK offer did no way guarantee the rights of the families and could end with some members falling foul of the regulations through no fault of theirs. The Eu were not prepared to have split families etc. His letter did not blame the Uk but simply stated the facts. - that is a précis of the letter!

I've been asking myself why we were so quickly moved, by the vote of a very small majority in the way we were, since it happened varian. I think it was shock. Cameron's shock, the Conservative party shock and individual MP's, who thought they had it all sewn up, shock.

The Brextremists just took over and, although we have seen some cracks we have yet to wrest their hands off the controls.

Yes!
They need to stand up for their beliefs and what will be best for the country.

These Brexextreemists are in the minority. Why don't the majority of Tory MP's who voted Remain, because they honestly believed it was in the best interests of their constituents and the country, stand up to these extreme right wing bullies?

I wouldn't mind doing quite a bit of what Norway does Mostly, but with the Brextremists in the government who are almost without exception very far to the right I can't see them letting control go enough to let that happen.

This should make brexiteers change their minds if anything does.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/fortnum-mason-struggling-to-recruit-staff-after-brexit-vote

I vote for saving 50bn