The Irish question

Members of the public could be stopped, searched and detained within a mile-wide strip of the border under new legislation planned by the British government.

The controversial powers are contained in the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Bill which is currently working its way through Westminster.

If the bill becomes law any member of the public could be stopped within a mile of the border to establish if they are entering or leaving the north.

The new proposals have already passed committee stage at Westminster and some observers believe could be law by Christmas - just months before Brexit is due to kick in.

www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/08/10/news/concerns-raised-about-border-stop-and-search-zone-1404017/

In their efforts to break the deadlock over the Irish border, British negotiators have already proposed a temporary customs arrangement, under which the U.K. would keep the EU’s tariff regime until the end of 2021. Now, May’s officials are looking at proposals to maintain the bloc’s single market regulations in key areas that will help ensure trade flows smoothly so there’s no need for checkpoints or police at the land border with Ireland.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-13/may-is-said-to-weigh-brexit-fix-that-keeps-eu-rules-for-longer

When the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union in June 2016, it was largely based on a desire to take back control of its borders.

While the UK was a member of the EU, trade and people moved relatively freely through the UK’s “soft” borders based on EU rules. Now, Brexit supporters argue, the UK can decide who and what gets into the UK by “hardening” the border. This is a fairly complicated process for the UK’s maritime borders. And it has serious consequences for its only overland border — the one between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

The question of how to regulate the Irish border has caused Brexit-EU negotiations to grind to a halt. That’s because the border wasn’t just open due to EU rules. It has been open for 20 years as a compromise that ended decades of violence in Ireland and as a symbol of identity in the country. Closing this border could undermine one of Europe’s greatest success stories

www.vox.com/videos/2018/8/21/17764444/brexit-irish-border-ireland-eu-uk

George Mitchell, the former US senator who helped broker peace in Northern Ireland, has said that if Brexit results in a hard Irish border the economic “losses” in the UK would be “aggravated”. Speaking in Belfast, Mr Mitchell said there would be a “huge historical irony” if the people of the Republic of Ireland became the biggest victims of a “hard UK Brexit”.

www.aol.co.uk/video/view/mitchell-speaks-out-against-an-irish-border-after-brexit/5b7e80be600c9a2fb67cea25/?guccounter=1

The Irish border challenge in Brexit negotiations has to be solved by Britain, not the EU, the Swedish government has said.

Theresa May says a no-deal Brexit 'wouldn't be the end of the world'
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The Swedish minister for EU affairs and trade, Ann Linde, said it was regrettable the Conservative party had made such an “extreme ideological” issue of the need to maintain the existing invisible border between Northern Ireland and Ireland after Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/28/irish-border-question-must-be-solved-by-uk-not-eu-says-sweden

The phrase ‘the Irish question’ perfectly encapsulates the UK’s and, in particular, Brexiteers’ attitudes towards Ireland. Ireland is a problem. It is a problem that is ignored at first, then batted away flippantly, only to come back as a major thorn in the UK’s side. The Irish question was not settled when Ireland was subsumed into the UK through the Acts of Union in 1800. It was not settled by the doomed Home Rule Act of 1914, and it certainly was not settled when Ireland was partitioned in 1921. If there is one thing, therefore, that is certain about Ireland’s relationship with the UK, it is that Ireland has always been a problem.

The Irish question was also not settled by Good Friday Agreement (GFA) in 1998 either; however, this was the very point. The GFA was all about parking the big questions to one side. It was all about ambiguity. It was about allowing the people of Northern Ireland to be Irish or British, or both, or Northern Irish. It was about reassuring unionists that Northern Ireland remained an integral part of the United Kingdom while, at the same time, establishing a path to a united Ireland that would be decided only by the people of Ireland.

The key to the GFA is that ultimately it is a utopian document. It is an expression of two competing promised lands: one of a united Ireland; and one of Northern Ireland’s future secure in the UK. What allows these two competing visions to survive is the same for all utopias: that their realisation is left for the future. It is something to be built towards. A united Ireland is something that can be achieved through peaceful democratic means enshrined by the GFA; simultaneously, peace in Northern Ireland can secure Irish nationalist acquiescence to the status quo, thus preserving the union. Similarly, like all good utopias, there is no set date for achieving this; utopian visions must be attainable but, at the same time, always just out of reach.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-irish-border_uk_5ab3ed3ee4b0bf1a4e3e045d

Brexit: Dominic Raab says Irish border deal is no nearer

www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45346587

After nearly two decades of peaceful coexistence between unionists and nationalists, we risk reigniting the sectarian conflicts of the past.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/11/leader-return-irish-question

I came across this little gem on an Irish friend s page this evening.
Jacob Rees-Mogg: "Ireland sells us over £800m of beef a year. If we put tariffs on that, the Irish farming industry would be destroyed."
Such a GOOD man the MOGG isn't he.Mind you he's not too bright ,there are 25 other EU countries who will buy Irish beef .Now who will buy our produce ?

I havent studied it in depth so I havent a fraction of the relevant knowledge that many posters have. I live in N Ireland. We are part of UK so there shouldn't be a border in the Irish sea between us and the mainland. The EU will need to have some kind of border checks between ROI and NI. It will be an easy route for those wishing to enter the UK. (and I'm not talking about those who genuinely need our help) However, important though it is I find the whole subject of Brexit totally boring. Better to pretend it isnt happening ? I have got my Irish passport though! ( first thing I did after referendum). My wish is for a second referendum on whether we should leave. Not all older folk want to leave! By the way, good luck to anyone with solving the problems in my country.

Assuming there is no deal, there would have to be border posts, there is no getting round that.
If that applied to goods only, goods traffic would have to go through the border checks, that happens on the Swiss border while people drive straight through. There are border posts on all roads and people may be stopped and questioned about currency they are carrying - we were. ( I was not keen on being stopped by a border guard with a machine gun asking how many Swiss francs we were carrying ) Switzerland does have free movement of people as condition of a free trade agreement and there are no passport checks.

If the UK decided against free movement how are we going to control illegal migration and smuggling without border posts.?. (Other than technology which does not exist)

Theresa May is only in power with the backing of the Unionists, without them she's out, in fact the Tory party is out so a general election seems certain.
Is there a chance that parliament will somehow accept border checks at mainland ports, which is the practical alternative and does take place at present. Passports are checked at Hollyhead and Liverpool etc.

So Diana leave N Ireland to cope with the migration problem? Would that be fair?

The DUP's views on brexit are the opposite of most folk living in NI.

Devorgilla perhaps you could explain the idea you have of someone proposing a united Ireland.
You say the Republic wouldnt want it so it wouldn't work. Perhaps we in the North wouldn't want it. Good luck to anyone finding a solution!

"Our Future Our Choice NI’ has just launched! Please support in whatever way you can! We are a group of young people from across Northern Ireland, campaigning for a People’s Vote on the final Brexit deal.

The voices of young people have been repeatedly ignored. In Northern Ireland, we feel especially politically homeless. The interests of the people here are misrepresented and underrepresented in Westminster, and with the collapse of Stormont we have been ignored for too long. Nobody speaks for Northern Ireland. So we are taking a stand.

We are children of the peace process, and are the first generation to grow up in a region free from conflict. Brexit is the greatest threat facing our generation; to our way of life, our jobs and our futures. We are worried that Brexit will reopen the divisions of the past and drag our communities backwards.

We are a cross-community campaign, and have already built considerable support across the region. From women’s groups to farmers and students, and from Belfast to the border - we are bringing people together to tell the politicians we won’t be ignored any more."

uk.gofundme.com/ofocni

Watch this short video and think how you would feel. I'ts their future which could be blighted by brexit.

Varian I believe our children are the way forward but I do strongly feel that we need integrated education so that they get away from the influence of older generation and form new ideas together.

I absolutely agree annep

Sorry for the delay annep. I haven't visited this thread in a while and it took me time to find my posts. I mentioned that comment about a united Ireland as it is always the solution trotted out when Ireland presents a problem for the mainland. Some people seem to think it is an immediate solution to the border and Brexit but it is anything 'but'. You could hold a referendum tomorrow, get the go ahead for a united Ireland from both sides but it would take years to come into being. Lots of issues affecting one or other part have to be resolved such as, for starters, the NHS v the system in the Republic, the pension situation, the cultural differences - not to mention the flag (and I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that part of the discussion). I'd love to hear the blueprint that those who advocate this as a solution have in their heads but I doubt I will live that long. I am less sure than others that we are close to a united Ireland as I think it is being touted because of Brexit and the border problem. I don't think that you have to be joined to another country just because you occupy the same land mass no matter how convenient it is for others. For example if Scotland or Wales became independent from England would we all campaign that they should be reunited as all on one island. The Scots are a distinct group as are the Welsh as are the Northern Irish as are the Southern Irish. They have common areas but those have to be strong enough to make you want to unite and not because of political expediency. What people advocate in a situation like Brexit and what they do in the ballot box when the crunch comes are often two different things.
As for an integrated eduction system, this was in the 1921-22 plan for the North but was unacceptable to the Roman Catholic Church - and the rest as they say is history.

It's more than a little bit worrying when the Northern Ireland Secretary has this to say.

As she admits, she has clearly lived her life in a bubble, and not a good one.

How can someone so unaware of the UK's recent history even get to be an MP; let alone a government minister?

Not the purpose of the post but thought it might interest some of you. Just a quick post to say during the night I woke having nightmares about the troubles. This is not unusual. Im sure I'm not the only person in N Ireland to do this. The effect of living through those awful years never leaves you. I remember particularly starting my car and hoping that it didnt explode. Or being afraid that a soldiers gun would go off accidentally at a car checkpoint. ( even though I knew we needed them here)

thanks for reply Devorgilla. have been busy. will read later.

Oops! Apologies - on re-reading my post I see I left the 'a' out of education.

Tbh the N I thing is too depressing to talk about at the minute. A lot of talk about it here atm also the no Assembly thing. So many urgent day to day issues need dealt with like health service problems. What a depressing place.

It is not only the NI secretary who was totally ignorant of the political realities in NI. I believe that most people in Great Britain who voted for brexit never had any understanding of the NI situation or gave it a second thought.