Attractive women must sometimes take the blame?

Paddyann, I'm wondering whether the case you described happened many years ago, when women could be named in the press, and if a woman was unmarried and not a virgin, that was held up in court as proof of her "promiscuity". I feel certain that many women of my generation and earlier were raped or at least taken advantage of by men, and didn't report it for the reasons above, or because they themselves felt they were to blame. Thankfully times have changed, but perhaps too much in favour of women, who I feel should take at least some responsibility for themselves.

actually we should take the blame along with the fathers these men are someone's sons so we should educate our boys to respect women whatever they are wearing

As a man, I am apalled by Lansbury's comments. It is never the woman's fault. It is perfectly possible to enjoy the sight of a beautiful lady without wanting to abuse them. This attitude of blaming the victim for the abusers action is sadly increasing in today's society.

We are all, each one of us, responsible for our own safety - full stop. I just don't get how people think the world has to tip toe around them. I spent my life in Higher Education, often representing my university at exhibitions in different locations around the world. Before each trip we would be issued with a set of guidelines by the British Council about how to conduct ourselves and this would include what to wear, what not to wear - it extended to things like not wearing jewellery and obviously expensive watches in very poor countries as this would leave yourself open to mugging. It's all a question of looking around the environment where you are operating and deciding what is the safest way for you to proceed - and that's about your entire behaviour including the visual image you create. The sexes are different and driven by different motivations, especially in sexual activity. There has to be understanding and acceptance on both sides and women who want to shout from the soap box that it's OK for a woman to walk around naked if she so chooses and to expect not to be molested, are simply arrogant and do nothing for the feminist cause. The very act of walking around naked is a piece of behaviour that says 'look at me I am showing you my sexuality'. That applies whether the person in question is a man or a woman.

I agree both sex are responsible for theirs actions and there are always some sick peoples around that no amount of precautions can anyone be protected from ... but been very careful of your actions and take a sensible approach . ( I am a male )

Ladypenelope no this was in recent times ,my daughter was a teenager as was the girl in the case ,my daughter is now approaching 40.It always stuck in my mind ,our newspapers were full of it at the time and her parents were distraught at how she had been treated in the witness box after them telling her she HAD to report it for her own and other womens safety

There could be at least 2 types of situations in which girls/women and some men, are sexually abused.
One is the type currently in the news, where so called powerful men use their power to get sexual favours.
The other type relates to "don't put a stumbling block in front of a blind man" - ie that kind of 'rape' which happens on a boozy night out.
Maybe that's the kind of situation Ms. Lansbury was thinking of.
Also there's so-called marital rape - more complicated?

I do think too much alcohol is often involved. I also would never walk alone late at night and would splash out for taxi even if short walk.

I do think the root of the present problem is that sexist behaviour has been accepted for so long.
Past minor misbehaviour is going to be so difficult to prove or disprove, that I think the emphasis now should be on changing attitudes for today's women and our daughters...and sons.

Humans are animals...........we have basic responses and sex is a major stimulated attraction. If you send out the signal that you wish to attract someone, then you are sending the signal to everyone..........if people respond, they are acting naturally.

You may attract Brad Pitt or some billionaire like Christian Grey (50 Shades of Grey) or you might attract someone with some issues..........the communication is the response you get. Some people dress provocatively for a purpose.

I think this is the gist of what Landsbury was saying. Sex has always been currency and always will be, looks are an important part of that, certain codes exist within the ways people dress.

We can't dehumanise people to the point where all natural responses are curtailed in the face of stimulus.........most men control themselves but some cannot, just as theives can't control their imputus to steal stuff......to pretend that we don't have to be aware of other people's reactions is ridiculous.

When a woman wants to attract a man, sometimes she dresses in a way that makes sure he gets the message. It is a deliberate and entirely reasonable action; and I am sure we have all dolled ourselves up a bit when meeting a man to whom we are attracted.

So we cannot argue that the way we dress has no sexual content - we all know that it does.

Knowing this, then I think it does make sense not to dress provocatively in a context where we have no wish to attract a man.

This is NOT an excuse for male violence; it is just an observation of fact. How we dress does send out a message - and this applies to men too.

A man may dress in a suit and tie; or in jeans and sweatshirt - either way it sends a message about the person, and is often chosen in relation to the context.

How would it go down if some man in pair of skimpy shorts and no top was jumped on by some woman. its All about respect.

What no one has said here is that rape is overwhelmingly about showing power, and only incidentally about sex.

It is just one of the forms of violence against women.

At the same time, yes, we should all be aware of unsafe situations.

I do not agree with the person who says women have to take some responsibility There are cases of elderly women some in their eighties being raped .So what instigates that.Were these elderly ladies wearing a short skirt ?.powdered and painted and in the words
of some' 'asking for it?

I was in a shopping mall last week and in a jewellery store was a near life size poster of an attractive girl with legs wide open, wearing very short shorts..the ad was for her bracelet. The media has a lot to answer for in the current climate or whatever you want to call it.

Both Joanna Lumley and a retiring woman judge have been castigated in the press in the last couple of years for saying that women should take some responsibility for their own safety. I cannot see anything wrong with that, and to say that men should control themselves whatever a woman is wearing is assuming that men who commit violent acts against women really do have respect and decency somewhere inside them and will behave accordingly. This would be lovely if it were true - and if it were there would be no sexual assaults. Young men in my family who go out in the evenings have said that drunken girls who are yelling out 'Come and get it' and pulling up their tops and skirts at passing men are not looking after themselves, and one young cousin got involved in a fight in the West End trying to rescue a stranger who was so drunk she seemed to have no idea that two complete strangers had taken her top off! Someone did call the police, and my relative was lucky to get away with just bruises. Women have suffered so much with prejudice and disgraceful bias from courts, judiciary and the police; times have changed but not enough that a woman can get into an incapable state and expect to stay safe in every environment. That is naive in the extreme.

Dear god, some of these posts are unbelievable. Of course we sometimes wear clothes to make us more attractive - that doesn't mean we want to be assaulted! Of course, there are situations where we might be unsafe and we need to take care not to put ourselves in those situations if possible - that doesn't excuse the behaviour of the attacker. Rape is an assault, not just a slightly more aggressive form of a consensual sexual encounter, and what a woman (or man) wears has very little to do with the intention of the rapist.

Yes, connelly63 - what WAS she thinking? Bear in mind that elderly ladies in their 90's get raped in care homes, nuns have been raped and - worst of all - cases come to court involving grown men who have been accused of raping even infant girls of a mere few months old!

How does the (obviously) out of touch Ms Lansbury explain any of that?

She's certainly not one of The Sisterhood......

I would just like to say although my gd is 17 and has good fashion sense but she does ask my advice about some things and I am honest with her and do say if I don’t think it’s right for her. She says she doesn’t want to give the wrong impression and 6th form college as some boys are inclined to comment inappropriately.

I think the word blame is misguided here.

It is simply about behaving responsibly in a given situation - and that applies to men and women.

Of course a man should not rape a woman even if she is behaving in an irresponsible way - but how much better it would be if she did not.

You're damn right, women can't win. I'm 62 and like to look smartly dressed. I'm getting a bit wrinkly now with greying hair, but while I don't wish to attract a man I don't want to look like a bag of washing either.

I find myself speechless when women, mostly young, say they should be able to walk home alone in the dark, drunk and with a very short skirt on and be safe and the government should make it happen. Same as cyclists saying the government should make cycling safe for them - they say it should be safe to cycle round anywhere in the clogged and twisty roads of London and be perfectly safe - it isn't safe and is unlikely to be so in foreseeable.

‘most men control themselves but some cannot, just as theives can't control their impetus to steal stuff.’

Radicalnan, that seems debatable to me. Do we know that for sure? It could be said, ‘most men control themselves but some choose not to, just as thieves do not control their impetus to steal stuff.’

If rapists and thieves were incapable of controlling themselves, it would be unfair to put people in prison for rape and theft.

It's a minefield. Propositioning a colleague to have sex with you shouldn't be harassment but can be if you have the power to hire and fire that colleague. Making a pass at a colleague who is an equal should not be considered abusive, even if one or both of you is married. Dressing attractively and looking well groomed will inevitably attract more offers, but that doesn't entitle anyone to refuse to take no for an answer.

I don't think many men understand how their behaviour can be seen as coercive. And I have the impression that many women take the side of the men in these interactions. Perhaps the best way to help men understand what it's all about is to cite the example of coercive homosexual relationships. Young men in Hollywood or in sports are regularly put under pressure to submit to sexual advances from more powerful men, who don't always take no for an answer. To say "you shouldn't look so angelic and attractive" obviously isn't useful advice to give to these victims. To say "you didn't complain about it for years, so you must have consented" is to stupidly misinterpet the power relationship.