Attractive women must sometimes take the blame?

Paddyann, I'm wondering whether the case you described happened many years ago, when women could be named in the press, and if a woman was unmarried and not a virgin, that was held up in court as proof of her "promiscuity". I feel certain that many women of my generation and earlier were raped or at least taken advantage of by men, and didn't report it for the reasons above, or because they themselves felt they were to blame. Thankfully times have changed, but perhaps too much in favour of women, who I feel should take at least some responsibility for themselves.

The point here is that we are all responsible for our own actions surely men should be expected to control themselves whatever a woman wears?

I understood what you said and I agree with what you said.

If you act dangerously, you are more likely to come to harm than if you act sensibly, but people who act sensibly also sometimes come to harm.

Yes, I understood that, monica, but I think I can see why you might think I didn't.

Baggs I said what? Are you sure you read my post correctly I said It behoves everybody, male or female to think carefully and act sensible.

If you act dangerously, you are more likely to come to harm than if you act sensibly, but people who act sensibly also sometimes come to harm.

In a perfect world, shop keepers would not need to protect themselves against shop lifters, houses could be left open and no-one would steal from them and men and women could get drunk and no-one would assault them or steal from them. But we know that we do not live in an ideal world. There are thieves and violent people around who will choose to prey on those most vulnerable.

Prime responsibility for any crime lies with the perpetrator, but it is also reasonable to expect that knowing this we should all have the sense not to put ourselves in situations that make us prime targets for malefactors. If we do, knowing the risks, we have some responsibility for anything that happens to us.

And I think it's for that reason that some women, like Lansbury, argue that women have to take some blame. I get the argument. I'm not sure I agree with it at all but I get it.

That last sentence by Sommers was meant to be in bold (by me). The phrase "where women market themselves on the basis of their looks and sexuality" is brutal but true.

In the context of the "MeToo" campaign, I get where she's coming from.she says:

‘We have to own up to the fact that women, since time immemorial, have gone out of their way to make themselves attractive. And unfortunately it has backfired on us – and this is where we are today.’ She continued, ‘We must sometimes take blame, women. I really do think that. Although it’s awful to say we can’t make ourselves look as attractive as possible without being knocked down and raped.’

She also said there's no excuse for men behaving badly.

Christina Sommers says this: "For what it’s worth, I don’t share Lansbury’s view – it lets rapists abdicate responsibility for their actions to say men are rendered uncontrollable when faced with a beautiful woman. But discussing power and responsibility in an industry where, rightly or wrongly, many women knowingly market themselves on the basis of their looks and sexuality should not be off limits."

That last sentence wasn’t serious by the way but being misquoted/misinterpreted should be what they expect

Well both if you can believe what you read of course so fair point. You’d have to read the whole verbatim speech wouldn’t you? I do wonder if celebs should just keep quiet because the likelihood of being misquoted is probably 100%

"Accounts of" or quoted remarks?

I’ve read various accounts of what she said Baggs and it all seems to be about making yourself look attractive/good. That’s a far cry from the examples you gave.

So, as I think monica is saying, it's unreasonable to think that you can behave how the hell you like and not put yourself at risk of undesirable consequences which, of course, is not what you intended.

I agree that we do have responsibility for our own safety. Sometimes it is to no avail and people have accidents, people get raped, and other horrible things because not every risk can be avoided and/or some people are not to be trusted to behave in a civilised way.

There exists a hook-up culture in some places and people use it willingly and aware of what they are doing. Sometimes it leads to sexual assault. This is not blaming the victim for the assault happening. It's blaming the risky situation they've got into along with the abuser.

I think that's the sort of thing Lansbury and some other women have meant when they've spoken on this subject.

It doesn't of course, cover all eventualities, just some of them. Sexual assault is simply bad but some of the situations in which it happens are not simple. I think that's all she's saying.

I do not think dressing attractively of itself can be 'blamed' but I do think that some women sometimes put themselves in danger by the way they behave.

However, I do not think that is particular to women. There are men who do exactly the same thing. Getting paralytically drunk puts you in danger. Students of both sexes fall in rivers and drown, or fall over in snow drifts and freeze to death or, like that airman who died, climb into wheelie bins to sleep it off and end up, presumably put through a rubbish system and dumped at a tip. Among the dangers facing women who act dangerously include sexual assault, but even that has happened to men.

It behoves everybody, male or female to think carefully and act sensible. I do not leave my front door wide open when I go away on holiday so that any passerby can steal my belongings. When the shortest rout between home and the station included narrow dark footpaths, I took the longer well-lit road route after dark becuase I did not want to risk being mugged.

Baggs you are crediting her with far too much subtlety and intelligence. Agree with Lazigirl. No we mustn’t sometimes take the blame. Full stop

As far as I can see We must sometimes take the blame, women. makes it clear what she means and I don't agree with her at all.

I don't think Lansbury was victim-blaming. Her argument is subtle but I understand it as saying that we are sexual beings and women always have and always will make an effort to make themselves attractive, that is sexually attractive. Men do it too but in different ways. This is not an argument excusing male sexual abuse of women and girls but I think that it muddies the issues in many people's eyes and that's why people have, I think, misinterpreted what Lansbury was saying.

What she said about women working at sexual attractiveness is true simply because we are sexual animals. It in no way excuses abusive behaviour by men against women. I understand that Lansbury has tried to clarify this.

I think one can understand her argument without flying off the handle.

Sorry it was in Saudia Arabia. Didn't realise I hadn't said where she was. Someone lent one to her and staff .

Why did she have to wear an abaya (?) to an all male college?
Why on earth did she agree to wear it?
That is as shocking as the above remarks, although I read Angela Lansbury's article and think she expressed herself clumsily.

Dd1 had to go into an all male engineering college recently to give a talk and wore an abaya-if that's the word.she said she found it very libearating to not care what she was wearing . Sixties educated me felt very bothered . I was shocked to be honest. I didn't say so . i'm still trying to digest what she said.

To be honest, I go around in old jeans and no make-up, but as I'm over 60, I'm invisible, so nobody calls me anything!

There are times when I wonder what is wrong with our society. That's a terrible thing paddyann. We keep being told that things are better in court and with the police's dealing with rape cases, and we can only hope that cases such as you describe don't happen again.

It's obvious that women can't win. If you dress in such things as short skirts, sleeveless tops, high heels, etc, you're 'asking for it', and yet if you wear trousers and no make-up you're 'an ugly b****'. Why can't women be themselves, just as men expect to be?

I clearly remember a rape case in the West of Scotland ,mainly because the wee girl was of an age with my daughter.She was totally humiliated in the court even had her knickers held up as evidence of how "sexy" she dressed.It was appalling and I'd hope that things have changed .That girl committed suicide when the "accused" walked free all because someone thought her knickers were the reason she got raped!!

I think it's an outrageous things to say - the same way people accuse girls of being raped because they wear short skirts. I'm surprised at her.