Labour supporters may be ignorant.

day6 myth making busy I see.

There isn’t a single clinician or NHS manager would agree with you over immigration explosion argument.

Severe lack of funding and severe lack of staff are the reasons for your overflowing A&E departments. Together with this government’s enormous cuts to local government and knock on effect to social care.

Of course the far right has been busy scapegoating - it’s what they do. For the working classes who have seen their communities eroded and traditional work gone, they are doing exactly what they have always done looked for someone or something to blame. It wasn’t difficult for the far right to persuade them of the myth of immigration rather than the truth, which is of course structural and inevitable change to the world of work.

Whilst immigrants are needed in the NHS they also need housing

whitewave -
The far right including the media are particularly keen to see as small a state as possible, and this of course means tackling the NHS, which they see as an unnecessary state provision

Whitewave once again you are making it up and spreading left-wing propaganda.

The dear NHS is political football used by the left. The NHS is precious to all and any party which dismantled it would cease to exist. Both the Conservative and Labour party know this and Labour has created the myth that they protect it whilst the government seek to destroy it.
That is a complete myth, given privatisation of some NHS services began under a Labour government, on Tony Blair's watch.

This, from "A mandate from the Government to NHS England:" (April 2017 to March 2018)
Presented to Parliament pursuant to Section 13A(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006.

The Government is committed to providing for patients and the public the highest quality,
most compassionate health and care service in the world, built on the guiding principles
of the NHS: that access to health care is based on need and not the ability to pay, and
that services are comprehensive and available to all

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/601188/NHS_Mandate_2017-18_A.pdf

Day6 I am pleased you have had excellent health care from the NHS. I wonder how many of the professional staff who treated you were in fact immigrants?
The NHS has for many years relied on nurses from other countries to maintain its staffing levels.
The myth I was speaking about is nothing to do with the excellent work done by NHS workers but is to do with the constant and widely repeated idea that in some way the proper treatment of any illness is beyond the capability of a service offering health care free of cost. A service that is quiety and effectively being undermined by this government.
Interesting that you needed to go back to 2015 to find a report about Labour and immigration a report incidentally that quotes research showing that immigrants contributed 10% more to the economy than they took from it. I would imagine more recent reports might find that a lack of nurses from the EU will be severely detrimental to the NHS.

This perception that we can't afford proper health care is a myth

Trisher, you are painting a picture that I do not recognise.

In recent years I have had the most superb care from the NHS and surgery which has saved my life. We have a marvellous NHS which we should treasure.

However, now in the outpatients department of my local hospital there is standing room only for all clinics - due to a massive population explosion of recent times. Labour's open door policies on immigration (much as we have to tread carefully when using the i word ) has been seen as a disaster for the man on the street and for society as a whole.

I quote - "The Labour party seemed to think everyone who came to the UK, working or not, could be housed and cared for. Net migration continued to increase after 1998 and rose even more sharply in the mid-2000s. David Blunkett, one of the most important politicians in terms of the development of migration policy[9], said in 2003 that there was ‘no obvious limit’ to the number of migrants that could come to the UK and that there was no limit to the number of people who could be housed in the country."

www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/355

Labour lost so much of its support because it did not recognise the concerns of the man on the street regarding its immigration policy. And we wonder why services are stretched when at the same time as we had massive population increase under a Labour government we didn't have more schools, homes and hospitals built to meet the demand.

And of course to have these concerns makes one 'racist' or 'bigoted' according to the left wing. Interesting Guardian article about the runaway immigration policy which was not thought through, alienated people and still haunts the Labour Party.

www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

trisher, were they in a care home or didn't need round the clock care?

Yes we are wealthier now but we are also more self centred ,

Of course it is a myth.

The far right including the media are particularly keen to see as small a state as possible, and this of course means tackling the NHS, which they see as an unnecessary state provision. However they have been scuppered as the U.K. population sensibly values the NHS highly. So bit by bit over the past 10 years this Tory Government has been starving it of funds, whilst using weasel words about how much they support the NHS and how much support they give to the idea.

We have choice, of course we do.

Are you then saying that in 2017 we are not a richer society with more people earning more money then Annie? and if we are then why can we not afford the extra expense? It is a question of lack of will not of extra demand. None of my grandparents or great grandparents ever lived with their children and we are a long living family.

And a district nurse called in homes to change dressings on the elderly who were living with their children.

Comparing the demands on the NHS in 2017 with 1948 is pathetic sorry

Primrose65 the things I have listed certainly existed. I have personal experience of them all. My mother had a hysterectomy in 1948 and was in hospital for a long period. In addition to all the things I listed I also had completely free nursery care. As for the progress I agree there have been huge strides, a hysterecomy now can be done in 24 or 48 hours, not the 2 months in hospital my mother needed. So yes there are huge new costs but savings as well. This perception that we can't afford proper health care is a myth perpetuated and promoted by those who not only dislike the NHS but who will make huge gains from its dissolution.

"in 1948 when we were still suffering the huge cost of a war, when there were district nurses, mobile midwives and even home helps?"

And far fewer people. Many back then did not want to depend on any form of charity either and would struggle on without advocates or intervention. The NHS today is a totally different animal, carrying out research, transplants, IVF, and using expensive technology and treatment which keeps people alive.

Do you really think we can turn the clock back and compare the behemoth that is the NHS today with the nurses in capes going about on bikes and the quaint cottage hospitals we had of yore? It's a completely different set up now and brought about through progress as society has evolved. People died within the old set-up because of lack of advances. Today with the same illnesses they survive. And need on going care, which costs money and takes time.

Again, you have employed a left wing strategy of harping back to a glorious past which is unrecognisable today.

the level of health care provided is so much poorer than that in 1948
That's absolute rubbish trisher. You're comparing today with a fantasy that never existed.

"What really upsets me is that the generation who grew up with the protection of the Welfare State introduced by a Labour Party, far more Left wing than anything in existance now, would deny this protection to others."

That is rubbish. The creation of the welfare state almost 90 years ago was a one off and momentous leap forward in social care because before it, nothing existed to support the poor.

It has existed for DECADES and in my lifetime I have seen schools, hospitals, social housing, clinics etc, etc being built. Population explosion has seen so many institutions unable to cope with demand, but the problems have been recognised and in the recent budget the chancellor committed £44 billion to housing in the 2018 budget.
No one has been denied the umbrella of the welfare state but it has many more demands made of it of late because over successive governments, including Labour, it hasn't been funded properly.

Why shouldn't we compare it Annie? Possibly because although we are a much richer country the level of health care provided is so much poorer than that in 1948 when we were still suffering the huge cost of a war, when there were district nurses, mobile midwives and even home helps?

And the 1945 labour government were voted out after one term

We cannot compare the health care available in 1948 and 2017, when I was ayoung a parent in a care home was something to be ashamed of. The first knee replacement was carried out in 1968 not 1848

Big difference in the number going to university in 1945 and 2017.

It is an attitude Day6 much as you may wish it wasn't. What really upsets me is that the generation who grew up with the protection of the Welfare State introduced by a Labour Party, far more Left wing than anything in existance now, would deny this protection to others.
We had, free school meals for all unemployed, (in school holidays as well), free healthcare, free education including university and college, with support for expenses, proper social housing and standards for it. As an example, there used to be rules in social housing for the ages at which siblings could share a bedroom. It was 10 year for eldest. How do I know? When my brother was 10 we moved from a 2 to a 3 bed house because it was considered unsuitable for us to share a room. Now families are housed in 1 B&B room and can stay there for over a year.
Families were poor but supported, now they are left to survive as best they can.

I certaintly have been alienated by the militant left wing.

the inability of the far left here to accept and respect others disagree with their militant views,

I am concerned about the power .Len McClusky will be handed yet am accused of being against unions followed by a lecture on the birth of unions.

Should unions have had the power to demand Lord Robbins should not resign after the deaths of over 100 children, should unions have had the power to make a village pay for the removal of unsafe tips? They did both.

Is the attitude that we are supposed to take that there will always be people who are poorer?

It's not an attitude though, is it?

All the positive thinking in the world doesn't change things, unfortunately, nor can any government concentrate solely or spend solely on one sector of society.

Yes, those struggling should be aided and since my childhood in the 1950s and 1960s things have improved incredibly in the way we care more and do more for those with little , those who are disadvantaged. We talk more about struggle than we ever did.
The "I know my place" sketch comes to mind and we have over the years broken down social barriers by dint of education, awareness and opportunity. I grew up at a time when people were too proud to claim benefits . There was a stigma attached to them so we grew up knowing our efforts mattered if we wanted to get on in the world. Consciousness has been raised and positive discrimination and intervention is now more widespread. The food banks, needed by those who don't have the income to buy food for whatever reason is an intervention that has only recently existed. The shame that some need to use them is a problem not easily solved. The reasons why people don't have food are many and varied and lifestyle is often a cause of poverty, even in a welfare state. It's a truth many on the left don't embrace and a reason why many will be on the streets for much of their lifetime, many will be homeless, many will need handouts. There isn't just one way to live and of course we have an obligation to look out for those who don't manage life so well, for whatever reason.
Many have moved on because of advocates, opportunities, and schemes which they have taken advantage of, all ways out of poverty. You can lead a horse to water though, but you cannot make it drink and this is true of the way people function as well. This is why we will never eradicate poverty no matter how much money we throw at the problem. We have a duty to keep plugging away though, and we do and no longer is there only one party for the working class.
Having a conscience and caring is not the preserve of the militant left wing but the way they spew hatred for anyone who doesn't vote as they do is counter productive. They alienate those who once voted Labour.

Neither can I Wilma, but I cannot support the front bench of the official opposition party either

Such a pity we have to hear tales of nurses and police officers having to use food banks .

Trisher all you listed concerns others as much as rabid left wingers , not all trust rabid left wing governments though, I do not.

The situation is simple for me. I can not support a government which legislates policy of which the consequences are detrimental to the most disadvantaged and the poorest in our society.

Interesting that people think life was harder when they were younger. Is the attitude that we are supposed to take that there will always be people who are poorer? I have no complaints about that. BUT I do think it is reasonable to accept that even the poorest should have a place to live and should be able to eat without relying on charity. I remeber that there was a huge outcry when the film Cathy Come Home was first seen and there was much said about such a situation being unacceptable in a civilised society. Yet today over 50,000 families are in temporary accommodation. The numbers in B&B accommodation has increased by 300% in the last five years, and nothing is said. Possibly because there are landlords who are being paid thousands for substandard accommodation. And no-one says anything.
www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/24/homelessness-england-families-temporary-accommodation-bed-and-breakfast
If wanting proper homes for families makes me a rabid left winger then so be it.

Annie I know what I said. I was not intending to cause offence and I apologise if that's how my post made you feel. I will not be drawn in to an argument with you about this.

I do not think any other government's manifesto is relevant because it's the current government that concerns me.

Wilma, you said - where is the logic in not believing a costed manifesto but believing in the current government . You addressed this to me . I do not support a Tory government but do not trust the Millitants who are controlling the Labour Party.

Do tell which government has carried out every promise in it's manifesto