Paid to breastfeed?

Just across the water from those of us in the U.K. is Norway, which has incredibly high rates of breastfeeding. It seems unlikely that British women are genetically unable to breastfeed when our Scandinavian cousins manage to do so well.

kellymom.com/fun/trivia/bf-rates-2004/

Norway, apparently, made a concerted effort to turn the tide and encourage women to bf with the introduction of Mat Leave and pay, way back in the 1950's. It can be done, if there's the political will to do so.

Breastfeeding benefits mothers in another way too - it reduces their chances of getting breast cancer decades later. This correlation has been known of for a long time. With breast cancer rates as high as they are - and it's one of the commonest cancers in this country - yet another reason to incentivise women. If the voucher method works then use it I say - even if it is counter-intuitive. Which is not to say that support is not also important.

nightowl

"Giving them money to breastfeed is not the same as making them feel guilty if they don’t??"

If that was in response to my post I did not say giving 'them' money to breastfeed was remotely connected to the word guilt! I am not sure any poster has made a connection between giving anybody money and gilt to be honest?

I said " I understand the point whole heartedly that breast feeding has many advantages and educating new mums is the correct thing to do, certainly not by making them feel guilt! In other words by scaring them into thinking their baby 'will' grow up and become obese etc.

As for your further point: " I think people are confusing the middle class imperative to breastfeed causing guilt for those who can’t (or don’t want to) with working class cultures where it is not the norm and therefore not even considered".

Is it a 'middle class' imperative to breastfeed and a working class culture not to breastfeed? As a ' working class ' woman myself but fortunately not confined by that label with my working, family and social life , all l can say is I only see women from any 'class' making their choices re breast feeding to be honest. I don't think giving money in such small amounts would have any effect at all .

I think it is interesting that what seems to emerge from the posts on here is that breast feeding runs in families. If mum and gran breast fed then DD is likely to do the same, partly no doubt because the family will support and encourage her. Without that support it is much more difficult. If only it were possible to replicate that support for all women.

Maizie d

" I did find your post very disheartening if you believe that nothing can be done to change women's cultural expectations. Though I don't actually think that is true. Quite a lot of cultural expectations in other fields have changed during my lifetime."

Maybe I don't believe it is all down to 'culture' !

Maybe I don't think using the term 'cultural excpectations' is anything other than 'middle class' snobbery.

Why on earth would two women who hold down jobs, both decide to bottle feed be viewed in the sense of 'class' or 'culture' differently?

Why would two women who are stay at home mums , both decide to breast feed viewed in the sense of 'class' or 'culture' differently?

No POGS my post was not in direct response to your post although you along with a few others have talked about mothers being made to feel guilty if they are unable or choose not to breastfeed. The point I was making was that offering money or vouchers seems to me to be a different strategy not linked to guilt.

And in response to your other point about class, I do think there is a middle class imperative to breastfeed which leaves those unable or unwilling to do it feeling very guilty. As a woman from a working class background myself I make no judgement on other working class women but simply state my own view, based on years of working with many young mothers from poor and deprived backgrounds, that in many communities breastfeeding is certainly not the norm and there is no guilt or stigma attached to bottle feeding, in fact quite the reverse.

I don’t think this issue is anywhere near as contentious as some posters seem to make out. We may disagree on whether this initiative is useful but I don’t understand why it should be viewed in such strongly negative terms. Although I do recognise that breastfeeding is a very emotive issue.

They are not 'viewed as' but denying culture and family background/history has no infuence, is not right or fair.

Been looking into this, and the current proposal is not about direct payment, but vouchers for large shopping chains. Quite a bit different.

Many mothers do no go back to wrok for a few weeks or months, and many (and perhaps those specifically relevant to this thread) are not in work.

If you read the report POGS women who took part said that what they had found valuable was not necessarily the money but the sense of friendship and support that arose from being part of the study group. So in a way what happened was that they became part of a different community or culture for the purposes of the initiative and it was this that encouraged them to breastfeed and to continue to breastfeed when they might otherwise have given up. Which supports the argument that breastfeeding is determined to a large extent by expectations and experiences within one’s own social group.

We have lowest breastfeeding stats in W Europe. Somebody has to do something!

Was talking to a passionate breastfeeding mum yesterday who didn't know how brilliant breastfeeding was when baby wakes up teething in the night. 30secs on breast and they're back asleep.

How far can you go back to put a claim in?
Hmm999, if it were so simple!
Mothers right if she wants to breastfeed or not. I disagree that breast is best all the time.

So, the proposal is to give Tesco vouchers if you breastfeed? Oh, great our little local independent supermarket will be pleased!

What a topsy turvey world we live, on first hearing about this suggestion it seems ludicrous to think that mums may be persuaded to breast feed through financial reward. It's open to so many variants, would these mums have to be 'policed ' or have to pay back the money if it was found they hadn't actually breast fed. would it be conditional to a time scale, would poo samples be taken from babies etc etc,
I'm neither for or against breast feeding, I think it is up to each mum & her circumstances to decide. Then looking at in a different light I thought yes I suppose it could help some women to at least give it a go, but in reality I don't think it will acheive the desired effect. Persuasion , debate about the benifts & support from midwives etc would surely have more effective in the long term in swaying new mums that breast could be best ?

POGS

Forgive me if I'm being really dense but I cannot for the life of me work out what you are trying to say here. It's English, but not as I know it....

Maybe I don't think using the term 'cultural excpectations' is anything other than 'middle class' snobbery.

Persuasion , debate about the benifts & support from midwives etc would surely have more effective in the long term in swaying new mums that breast could be best ?

I wish it was that easy. Logic just doesn't apply to this situation, I fear. As this thread is showing, there are all sorts of 'issues' connected with breastfeeding that make it far more complicated.

I think persuasion, debate about the benefits and support from midwives etc went along with the vouchers. It was a research project, run by the University of Sheffield and funded by the medical research council. It has been going since 2014 to look at the effects at different stages. What’s the problem? They are looking at whether it helps. If it does I’m sure it could be rolled out to different areas. If it doesn’t, well they’ll scrap it and move on to another idea. It hasn’t harmed anyone as far as I can see, and I don’t see why it arouses such strong negativity.

I agree that the trend to discharge first time mothers from hospital the same day must be having an impact on BF rates. It is not easy and needs support in the first days and weeks. Several of my friends adult daughters wanted to feed but did not get the support. Also some of the hospitals give supplementary bottles which usually sound the death knell on breastfeeding. It only really seems to be successful if you accept that you are continually feeding fir the first few weeks. Also agree that it “runs in families”.

It should be totally illegal for formula milk companies to push their products in hospital- and to give free starter samples in hospital, on exit and via health visitors, etc.

Once a mum starts on formula, it is almost impossible to return to the breast - they know that, and count on that. Disgusting. This even more so with mums who are very young and with financial and other difficulties, very vulnerable.

Does it count if a woman breast feeds with a bottle top up?

I disagree that breast is best all the time.
Well, it certainly was not best for my first-born.
Yes, gluten does go through in breast milk so anyone who has a very colicky and distressed baby should be aware of that and the baby could be coeliac.

Topping up with a bottle will tend to diminish the supply of breast milk as it is the hormones released by breastfeeding which stimulate the milk supply. (Sorry, I can't recall all the names now). So the solution for a 'hungry baby' is to feed more often to increase the milk supply. Also, in my day, the bottle teat made it easier for the baby to get the milk so there was a danger of them eventually rejecting the breast in favour of the easier bottle. But I know that bottle teats are supposed to mimic a nipple more closely these days, so I don't know if that still applies.
It's a bit more complex than that in that a baby that's not 'latched on' properly won't stimulate the breast correctly in order to effect the release of the milk producing hormone but that's the basic reason for top up bottles not being a good idea.

Would it count as breastfeeding? I wouldn't really like to say...

Feeding more often doesn’t work if the baby is permanently hungry and crying and the mum seriously sleep deprived. Two hourly feeds just aren’t practical. After a week you go gaga.

I'm not gaga, nfk and I did it. Newborn babies' stomachs are tiny, 2 hourly feeding is absolutely normal as far as the baby 's needs are concerned. The interval between feeds increases as they grow and their stomach capacity increases. Most people get round this by having the baby in bed with them (not much approved of officially), or very close to them, so as to ensure minimum disruption for night feeds.

I know exactly what it's like to be in a zombie state through lack of sleep. It's the biggest shock to the system ever and something that one is utterly unprepared for. I also had a second baby who cried solidly and inconsolably for 3 or 4 hours every night, until about 1 or 2 in the morning, for her first 4 months and a toddler who woke at 5 a.m. It was survivable. But it meant letting go of every 'normal' activity and doing the barest minimum, childcare, meals and the washing, until that phase passed. Some women just can't let go to that extent.

I feel that you might be talking about a real and current situation. I've explained how milk production works; there's more detail here: emedicine.medscape.com/article/1835675-overview#a6 (scroll down to the section on lactogenisis).

But what it ultimately boils down to is what the mother is prepared to tolerate, how much support she gets, both expert and from her immediate family, and, what she feels is best for her and her baby.

Even breastfeeding for the first few weeks gives the baby a good start in life; no mother should ever be made to feel guilty if they feel that they just can't bear to carry on with it.

No, it’s not a currant situation for me or mine Maisie. Me and mine all failed! You are wonderful! I take my hat off to you. I just didn’t have the stamina - wasn’t safe carrying the baby as I had a couple of ‘funny turns’ and couldn’t eat as I was too nauseous. A vicious circle. Because I was so run down I had to bottle supplement. Doctors orders. Certainly didn’t stand a hope when I had one and then two young children to cope with too. DD1 really did try with her first born as after suffering severe pre-eclampsia DGD was 7 weeks prem. and needed the it but if it wasn’t for bottle top ups DGD wouldn’t have survived. My other DGC were all breast plus bottle fed as DC said they wanted to enjoy and not endure their new babies. They had a point.

I however, have been left with enormous guilt that I failed to give my DC the best possible start in life - although they do seem very healthy.

Sorry, there seems to be a stray ‘the’. “needed it.”

Jalima gluten is a long complex protein. How on earth could it get into breast milk? The intestinal wall is a barrier to such large molecules (like trying to get a snake to go through the holes in a sieve). Then this giant protein has to get into the blood vessel, then out again in the breast and into the milk producing cell in the breast. More fine molecular "sieves". Reminds me of the interesting advice I ever heard - which a health visitor gave to my sister IL - "Don't drink fizzy drinks because they will give the baby wind".