That’s not a brexiter that’s a rebel who believes in democracy

Varian I think it would help the Lib Dems if they could find another new leader. Vince Cable is still tainted by the sale of the Royal Mail.
I'm not a Lib Dem but I rather liked Tim Farron and felt he was unfairly hounded out of his leadership.

Looking at the Paul Dacre evil headlines, Brendan Cox does well to remind us that Fascism in Europe never started with mass killings. It started with the normalisation of hatred.

We must never forget that and utterly despise what Dacre and Farage are trying to do.

I have re-joined them - the stakes are so high.

As said before, if only 'rebels' from both left and right crossed the floor to them (just like Churchill did, twice or even 3 times- must look it up) - and alliances were made with the Greens - we could have a revolutions on our hands.

Living in the UK for 40 years- my vote never ever counted and went straight to the bin - time after time- because of the Constituency and First Past the Post system. Not much of an incentive.

There is a political party which stands for the Remainers, which believes in moderate, not extreme policies and which has been willing to put country before narrow party intersests.

It was incredibly difficult for the Liberal Democrats to go .into coalition with the Tories in 2010. Many party memberls had battled against the Tories for the whole of their adult
lives and were aware of the fact that the smaller party in a
coalition inevitably suffers at the next election, and yet they
agreed to put the intersests of our country before narrow
party interests. Of course a great price was paid in the 2015 election when the Tories ruthlessly attacked the LibDems.

I now find myself puzelled as to how reasonable moderate folk can be fairly represented in a country which is so polarised between political extremes. There are so many voters who are not represented by a right wing Tory party and a leftbwing Labour party. What would the LibDems have to do to gain their support?

Indeed Morgana- many of us feel totally left in the lurch between the left and the right- unrepresented- and the victims of extreme politics and even worse- this constant see-sawing which is so damaging.

Most interesting posts today. I would love there to be more of a central party in parliament. Sadly lacking at moment. Reading something on line yesterday (sorry can't remember
Where) about many Br exit voters having changed their minds. But am amazed at the vile racist comments on line too.

What frightens me is that, even now Farage, The Scum and the Fail can still control vast numbers of the electorate at will. They are the ones with 'control', not the people who think it belongs to them.

What a long winter it has been since the referendum, but at long last the majority have found their voice, realising that the loony right is a force that can and must be stopped.

The vote is parliament last week has sent out a clear message to Maybot in particular that she must stop herself being a prisoner of this lunatic fringe, who after the vote sent out abuse after abuse to the 11 who voted for a democratic process, threatening to kill them, or do great damage to them. They were ably abetted by such rags as the Daily Mail.

For the voter what is important is what the majority in Parliament believe is in the national interest and not what these extreme factions who only believe in what is in their self interest, assuming rather madly that it must also be in the countries interest.

There is an almost unprecedented amount of cross party support, which is growing daily and largely organised by Umunna.
The Lords, and in particular the Tory lords, have sent a clear message to May. “Control this lunatic fringe, or face defeat”

What will this extreme faction now do? Farage has talked about whipping up the country into violent disarray. Some are simply determined that Brexit happens regardless of the deal, and then seem to think that they can pursue the ultimate goal in the years to come, of low tax, low welfare, low regulation. This is the end game for many.

Here's another daydream that might come true.
I do hope it gets through the EU before we leave.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/12/16/campaign-win-company-beneficial-ownership-to-be-required-on-public-record-throughout-the-eu/

Our incompetent PM will probably have lots of people to advise her about it, like her husband.

I think that for the SNP to form an alliance with Labour the latter would have to agree to not oppose them in an election, and, much as I'd like that scenario I can't see it happening. I may indulge in a few happy daydreams about the scenario, though.

MaizieD 'Today's Daily Express headline looks extremely a bit hysterical:

SACK THE REBELS AND LET'S GET ON WITH IT'

a bit hysterical??? Massively so, and delusional. Mrs May's majority is so so flimsy already - she can't afford to lose anyone, let alone 11...

My dream is that they would walk rather than be pushed. It was good enough for Churchill, so why not for them. And the same for Labour remainers - join the Lib Dems, amd make an alliance with the Greens, and perhaps SNP and Playd Cymru (sp?) - and we would have a true change of the face of politics in the UK, the likes of which have not been seen for a very long time. Wouldn't take much. And perhaps even Sinn Fein would finally agree to take their seats too.

No, petra; I just thought that the delusionist halfwits should know that the Guardian embraces a range of views.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/viviane-reding-brexit-speech-1-5321037

I think she is right.

"After her very own ‘annus horribilis’ of a botched snap election, conference nightmare and Cabinet resignations, May will just be pleased to get to Christmas still in No.10. That may be why she wants no further headaches next week and is considering a fresh compromise to avoid another Commons defeat on the fixed ‘Exit Date’. She will also want to unite her party as it heads off for the break after some vicious in-fighting. Yesterday morning, I’m told that when Dominic Grieve sat down in the Commons Tea Room for his usual early breakfast, every other Tory nearby promptly got up and walked out. May wants to smooth over such divisions to give herself space to use 2018 for the bigger task ahead.

The PM will also both buy some time and seek unity by finally staging a series of detailed Cabinet discussions of the Brexit ‘end state, the first of which takes place next Tuesday. The Sun reports she will try to get some kind of agreement by February, when she is set to deliver her third Big Speech on Brexit (after Lancaster House and Florence, what iconic location will she choose?). Each of the Cabinet’s 28 members will be asked their view on Tuesday, yet some will wonder how feasible it is that they will come to a common position within just a few weeks. Will May herself reveal which kind of Brexit she wants next week (many are still in the dark as to her true intentions), or hang back until the New Year? Will any minister quit if they don't like the option agreed?"

More Huffpost. May needs to realise that Brexit is not party political. That would help her. There are more than Frank Field and Kate Hoey who voted to leave.
Tories ought to be truer to their constituencies as well.
Not sure why I'm saying that on this thread, though.Luckily she'll have more to do than read Gransnet.

"The EU27 head into the next phase of the process thinking they are in a very strong position indeed. One Brussels source says the UK’s ‘position papers’ on various elements of Brexit are ‘stuffed full of contradictions’. And as for May’s plea for a 'deep and special' relationship, the EU believes 'negotiation by adjective' is no substitute for actual substance. Brexit is not a pizza delivery order, as one insider puts it. Even Brit-friendly Dutch PM Mark Rutte said last night: “I think we need from her to understand how she sees this future relationship with the EU.” And Merkel put it more tartly: “Many tasks still need to be solved, and time is pressing”. The good news is phase one is over, the bad news is things may get harder not easier from now on. And the clock is ticking."

Huffpost.

Does this mean that poor Larry is consigned to the half wit, delusional racist pile with the rest of us, or is he forgiven because he writes for the Guardian. Whichever way you try to defend him he still voted to leave

Hush, ww. Don't impugn their intelligence

they are all so bright

Today's Daily Express headline looks extremely a bit hysterical:

SACK THE REBELS AND LET'S GET ON WITH IT

To those who might be nodding in agreement I'd say if that's their advice to Theresa May then they haven't thought it through, have they?

a) She can't 'sack' an MP, they're in parliament 'til they resign, die or lose their seat at a General Election.

b) she could withdraw the whip but there are 11 of them. If she withdraws the whip then she loses her already shaky majority. Could even lose the tories their government



Empty words, really.

And what exactly has he achieved???

I see Davis has spent £50k on flights around Europe -seems excessive

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2017/12/15/high-court-quashes-guidance-on-deporting-eea-nationals-who-are-sleeping-rough/

Good to know that high court judges haven't given up, and still care for EU law.

I was only awake by accident, and happened to look out of the window. Then I stood there for at least half an hour, until I realised I was cold, watching them. They seemed to be right over the radio mast that I can see from my sitting room window.
There should be a lot tonight, as well.

We looked for them a couple of nights ago but it was very cloudy. Was very windy here in the early hours; I was expecting the power to go off but it didn't. The problem the other week was in the house and thankfully it's been sorted!

Hope your electricity is okay up there, Tegan.
By the way, I am sure I saw the Geminids early this morning looking north east from me. I was awake between two and three. You should have been able to see them if you were awake.