That’s not a brexiter that’s a rebel who believes in democracy

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/printed-lies-book-review-1-5330225

How Brexit won by telling lies.

Here's a very interesting link especially for those who call remainers names.

kittysjones.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/the-anti-social-public-relations-of-the-pr-industry/

"In her interview with Channel Four News – which followed an investigation by openDemocracy which discovered over a quarter of a million pounds of public funds had been channelled to the ERG through MPs expenses – Fernandes refused to say how many government ministers were in the ERG.

Told repeatedly by the Channel Four News presenter, Krishnan Guru-Murthy that if her group took public money then the public should have a right to know, Fernandes looked uneasy. Resorting to awkward laughing, and clearly unsettled she replied, “The list of MPs is known to the ERG.”

Both Channel Four News and openDemocracy have repeated requests to Fernandes’ office for a full list of the ERG membership, its research, and the cost of its publically funded operations. No list has been provided. "

"New data collected by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority covering the last year, show that the six cabinet members, along with the chief of staff and special adviser to the Brexit secretary, David Davis have each claimed £2,000 in parliamentary expenses for “professional” and “pooled” services from the ERG. Five other subscriptions from former Tory cabinet ministers and whips, plus the current chair of the ERG, means this group alone have claimed more than £32,000 from the public purse.

Michael Gove, the environment secretary, Penny Mordaunt, the newly-promoted defence secretary, David Gauk, the work and pensions secretary, Sajid Javid, the communities and local government secretary, Andrea Leadsom, the Leader of the House of Commons, and Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, have all used official expenses claims to pay for “ERG subscriptions” over the last 12 months.

Stewart Jackson, who lost his Peterborough seat in June’s general election, and is now chief of staff to David Davis at the Department for Exiting the European Union, also used his official expenses to pay for ERG services during the last years. "

Thanks to opendemocracy.

paid up members of secret group
Not very 'secret' when 12 people are named in the article

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/james-cusick/six-of-theresa-may-s-cabinet-are-paid-up-members-of-secret-group-demanding

Here's a nice conspiracy theory.
The problem is, I believe it.

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/you-aren-t-allowed-to-know-who-paid-for-key-leave-campaign-adverts

Obviously they were getting too close, so now, the day before they break up for Christmas the government brings in a new law to stop it going to court.

Stinks, doesn't it?

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay-peter-geoghegan/secretive-dup-brexit-donor-links-to-saudi-intelligence-service

Saudi Arabia, too.

jura google banks and DUP loads of it comes up

Ok - although I’ll have to tell you I can’t do links.

I know dj and I have talked about it. Can you remember dj?

ww- if you find any links, would be very interesting (thanks)

I thought that it had been traced back to Aaron Banks?

Yet another farce.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dup-425000-donation-brexit-owen-smith-chloe-smith-a8118966.html

When did QT turn into the Jeremy Kyle show I wonder ?

I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be associated with the inarticulate UKIP types who yell insults from the floor on QT and can be heard on various phone in programmes. And yes, I know that’s not all leave voters , but they are a sizeable and vocal number.

Isn't the company responsible for Question Time something to do witf Breitbart [sp]?

Interesting and frightening post Maizie, when you watch QT, every week there is someone bawling and shouting from the audience about 'Why don't we just go!'. As time goes on I get more and more frightened about what is ahead, and more and more irritated by people like you, Primrose with your diversionary comments.

Why not just read and post on the MN forum? Fine to share a link imo, but that's a lot of cut and paste.
It seems a bit weird to have posts critiquing what is written on a different forum and pointing to other posts by the same user.
It's exactly what the Daily Mail and others have done and people have complained about it. I hope you're not an ex-DM journo Maizie!

Sorry. The mn poster is called 'thecatfromjapan'

Is that a post written by a well informed Mumsnetter

The poster, judging from her other posts, is certainly well informed. Of course, as posters on mumsnet (as on Gnet) are anonymous I have no idea of what her day job is.

She did another excellent post on the Leavers' tendency to personify the EU and paint it as vindictive and spiteful. It's on p22 of that thread (I can't post a link as I have it set to show all the posts on one page).

Dunt

“Brexit; all that’s left is for May to get through that unyielding wall off reality”

I agree with maizies post and think this is exactly why we should never have had a referendum.

Is that a post written by a well informed Mumsnetter or a professional piece do you know? Very good anyway.

I see a report today in the Times about the IMF statement yesterday.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/privatised-nhs-and-tax-rises-forecast-by-imf-h969qgjmb

I'm not sure where to put this. It's an interesting post from the current mumsnet Wesminstenders thread (which, BTW, should be followed by all Remainers on here )

Essentially it's saying that Leavers have been 'radicalised' (like ISIS supporters have been radicalised).

start

I have slowly, slowly come to the conclusion that nothing is going to shift those Leave voters. Nothing that people say; nothing that happens.

I say that as someone who has always, passionately, believed that politics is essentially about persuasion and change and is essentially dynamic: a process of pragmatism that is of its nature non-ideal, a mixture of the changing material real and response to that change; a process of persuading people to move from fixed ideologies in response to changed situations, a process of response between experience-based standpoints and discourses that enable people to live full lives as political beings.

And I've seen that work in my life time, with genuine positive political and social change and the evolution of political discourses both at the level of how people explain their reality and in legislature.

But this, this, is something different.

It is beyond that process of persuasion, argument and experience.

I think it is close to grooming and radicalisation. And, yes, I know that radicalisation is a kind of 'discourse of the oppressed' - but I would say that it is a kind of zero-sum discourse, and its very extremism is based on a belief that the process of interactive political discourse itself is dead. It is, in many ways, a discourse founded on the death of the political process - or at the very least, a death of the hope of political discourse.

Which is why reasoning, discussion, experience, talking has no effect.

There are no 'magic words' that can reach through that.

And, yes, I truly think that a lot of those people have been 'groomed' into that position. They have been radicalised by a discourse that has taken an experience (for example, the decline of manufacturing and traditional industries; the concentration of labour and wealth in emerging areas of the UK) and constructed a discourse of hate around that.

Hate is stronger than bread. Hate, I think, drives people on when their stomach is empty. I suspect we are going to find out if I'm right about that.

And I fundamentally disagree that there is no point in talking about the damage to the economy and the City and replacing it with some sort of fakery about 're-building the economies in a geographically fairer way'. Why? Because that would be lying. It would be ameliorative fantasy. And people have been lied to enough, surely? Some of us, for sure, have been sickened by the force-feeding of lies and half-truths. By the wilful mis-representations, and the giving of deception-soaked fantasy and half-truths. By the gentle stroking of people's most base instincts, whilst they were encouraged to believe things they, deep-down, knew to be a complete fabrication of the truth.

We're not children. We're adults. We have to accept and own our responsibility. And the truth. And the truth is that experts, yes experts, have revised the damage to the UK's GDP - from a pre-Referendum estimate of between 4% and 10%, to a whopping 12.5% - partly because no-one seriously believed the City would go.

It's pointless not telling people how important the City is. It's childish feeding people's resentment and hatred of it's dominance in the economy. It is what it is. We don't have time or room for manoeuvre to change that dominance now. Instead, we are facing a massive hit to the UK's GDP.

We need to be very grown-up in discussing that. No more cartoon-cut-out hate figures. No more appealing to limbic emotions.

As one of my friends said to me a day or so after the result: how does a first-world nation survive a hit of that magnitude to its GDP and not become a failed state?

That is the discussion we need to have.

It is, without a doubt, what others are having - and some of those people have some really, really unpleasant solutions to that problem.

The conversation about the City does talk about the dispossessed - or those with a profound feeling of dispossession. Lots of us talk about how the impact of Brexit is going to fall disproportionately on 'Leave' areas. We talk about how it will decimate the public sector: if anyone feels dispossessed right now, I would say this: 'If you have a reasonable expectation of being treated in a hospital when you are ill, of having your children actually educated in a school, have some kind of help when in hardship - you have much, much more to be dispossessed of.'

None of this makes any difference. It's not heard.

Some - many - people are far, far past the point of joining in with the conversation. They have left the conversation. Nothing is going to bring it back. That is why I say that Brexit was a kind of mass radicalisation.

It's one reason I hate the 'I hate London and Londoners' threads on MN. They popped up big time throughout the Referendum. The Chaos Merchants that appeared on MN peddled a strange muddy line that mixed up anti-semitism, anti-Bankers, anti-elitism, xenophobia, anti-cultural liberalism, fear, insecurity and economic liberalism. It was grooming. A mixture of sops to people's darkest insecurities and soporifics about the misgivings of the result of such poisonous ideological opium.

I genuinely think that very little that happens or is said over the next few years is going to shift all of that. So, the very least we can do is to try to tell the truth, not lie, not soft-peddle, not misrepresent, not feed the hunger for fantasy, not appeal to people's needs for an ego-reassuring lie, not appeal to irrational emotion over the need for truth. I honestly think that it is something we need to do as a good in itself and because anything else is hopeless.

ends

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a3112199-Westministenders-Rebel-Rebel-Your-Brexit-is-a-Mess

(posted today at 04.39 if anyone wants to see the original)

Can someone explain to me why so many Labour MP's abstained from tonights vote?