Talking about brexit

It is utterly shameful that the vote was denied to the very people who would be most affected.

If the 3 million EU-nationals in the UK had been given the right to vote I think the referendum result would have been different. That right was denied us.

Actually it was only the will of about 26% of the people. Quite apart from younger folk (some of whom would be able to vote elsewhere) other people who were disenfranchised included many Britons living in the EU and ALL EU nationals living in the UK, including my German friend who has lived here for more than twenty-five years, working, paying taxes and contributing to British life in many ways. She is now planning to leave because she no longer feels welcome.

I find some of the right wing press really poisonous as, I'm afraid are some of the comments on here. Calling people Traitors on the front page of a newspaper, when we know exactly what that means, is so divisive that people have been encouraged to send death threats to MPs. The use of this kind of language is both sad and shameful.

I would put with this the idea that "the people" have voted. No, it was not the will of all the people - it was the will of 37% of the people of this country. I would accept that anything between 10% and 20% might want the hard Brexit some of you crave but that does not reflect the will of "the people". The 37% do not represent me or many others and I too am one of the "people"

God did not come down and say "bless you my children, you shall have exactly the brexit you want". An advisory referendum took place but it did not decide that we should leave; Parliament decided we should.

GG you are entirely wrong that anyone has used Varian’s OP as ( you say) ‘a stick to beat her with’ because we may hold an opposing view, and I hope that Varian can see that.I certainly have tried to be constructive, but like some others, think a funeral is one of those occasions where you keep quiet if a relative starts any conversation that could turn awkward.

Perhaps he should have to move somewhere smaller, you know, for the price that my MP gets slated for.

According to his sob story in the Fail he's separated, skint and can't leave his home for fear of nasty comments. Tired of all the publicity etc. Had to remortgage his £600,000 house. My heart bleeds for him....

Funny how people use the word typo to mean any sort of mistake.

Even if they were only saying you were allergic to him? ?

Can I make it clear that, if anyone mentions the name Farage at my funeral, I shall come can and haunt them for eternity....#justsaying

63 %
typo.

It certainly doesn't, as 37+67 is greater than 100%

" Please do not attribute things to me that I did not say just to try and make an argument. I will not bite."

I quoted you verbatim GGmk2. I see however you have inverted commas around your 'right', so by the same token Remainers weren't right either. We agree on that.

I was not looking for you to 'bite'.

Ha...37% wanted out. Still a greater proportion than those who wanted to remain. That's a clever ploy. It does not mean that 67% wanted to Remain.

Nearly 47 million people were entitled to vote and approximately three quarters of them turned out to do so. More people voted to leave than to stay. You didn't get the outcome you were looking for and have whined ever since

Indeed GG- people wanted their Sovereign British Democracy back - and now they want to destroy it. It makes no sense. The UK has a very long tradition of Parliamentary Democracy, and not a Direct One - which is based on us electing MPs to represent us at the GVT - and this is not and has never ever been, based on Referendums, which are and always have been, advisory. David Cameron had not right whatsoever to promise to the electorate that it would be implemented - as it is totally agains the principles of our Sovereign, British, Parliamentary Democracy.

Even in Switzerland- where the systems is based on public Referedums which are binding- the VERY close result in feb 2014 on the limits to immigration - has resulted in such catastrophic effects on Switzerland in so many ways- that the GVT has not yet implemented it - and is trying to find a way, nearly 3 years later- to implement it in a limited form that will reduce the negative effects - on industry, financial services, massive research projects and institutions, security, Universities, development, etc, etc.

So both countries have a TOTALLY different political system- and even where a Referendum is binding - when the effects are shown to be cataclysmic - anything is done to minimise the negative, catastrophic even, effects.

That is elitist

It is not elitist Day6. None of us are right or wrong we all just have opinions we believe in. For some, the reasoning makes them think we should leave and to some it make them think we shouldn't and those views are shifting all the time.

Please do not attribute things to me that I did not say just to try and make an argument. I will not bite.

Whatever opinion we hold we are entitled to continue to try and persuade others and put our case.

Saying I have a grudge-holding hostility will not offend me - I simply think less of your reasoning.

It appears I know more about British Parliamentary democracy than you. I am content to keep it not to over-ride it.

37% wanted out and it was only advisory.

Oh and Varian, I fully agree that it is annoying that people assume that I agree with them, on any number of subjects. Some people do assume that their view is a universal one, and of course it's not.

You were in a difficult situation at a funeral. I think in some social situations the best thing to do is change the subject or move away. I have to steer clear of certain subjects when my SIL visits. We agree on very little and she gets heated very quickly. I don't like confrontation, or conflict although I will stand my ground as a matter of principle, but even then if I sense tempers are going to flare I extricate myself from the conversation or try to change the subject. (I do quite like the phrase my then teenagers used a decade or so ago "Peace out man....")

GGMk2 - "if leavers do not realise they are not 'right' ".

That is elitist. It's not about right and wrong. It was about choice. We had a choice, all of us. We had a vote.

Without getting embroiled in the whys and wherefores here, there were reasons for people to want us to break away from Brussels and those reasons were many, varied and valid. Many of us read around the subject and were not gullible, or ignorant and solely influenced by newspaper headlines as you'd like to imagine.

Since then there has been such dreadful grudge-holding hostility directed at Leavers by Remainers who cannot accept the democracy of one person, one vote. Is bigot a term that applies?

Do you oppose democracy? Are you unsure as to what extent it should be respected as a political vehicle? What is revealing is this open and hysterical contempt of Leavers by Remainers. Half the electorate wanted out. Doctors, businessmen, teachers, lawyers, nurses, journalists, lorry drivers, train drivers, farmers and shop owners voted OUT. Such people are your your neighbours, your family and your friends. They had a choice - we all did.

Please ignore the last line. This tablet has a mind of its own!

I am well aware of the fact ghat other folk have different views and we have to accept them as we live alongside them.
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Everyone in our village knows we are LibDems as we put up posters and deliver leaflets. Some folk who may actually be quite moderate Tory supporters pretend to have much more extreme right wing views to try to wind us up and pick a fight but we can spot that a mile off and have a choice selection of retorts. We don't rise to the bait.

When you meet new folk, I agree that it is best not to launch into a political discussion. At the wake the lady asked how I knew the deceased. When I said it was through the LibDems, she immediately launched into the subject of brexit and kept saying how thrilled about it all. She knew that her late relative was not just LibDem, but a member of the local committee and had obviously enjoyed arguing with him. I'm not sure whether she exaggerated her views when she said how fantastic Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees Mogg were and how super it was going to be when we became a free country, etc., but I'm afraid I told her I did not agree.

funny responses to that

Thank you Bridgeit. My second reply (I assume you were reply to the first)was because those politically opposed to Varian's view, used her really useful post as a stick to beat her with.

This was a difficult position to be in and could happen - because of the general levels of anger or self-righteousness - to anyone. I have even been accosted by someone when buying a newspaper who expected me to agree with the headline of the DM she was buying with a "well we all think that don't we' type of remark.

On GN some people cannot even politely discuss the difficulties this division has made; they have to shout their political stance - and as Varian did in her difficult conversation I felt someone should disabuse them of the feeling they are right and remind them theirs is just one opinion.

Well put GG,and don't forget the saying ' choose your battles' we don't always have to react. Sometimes a simple hmmmm ,is enough to stop or change a conversation . Or just like we do with children , distraction , perhaps another time say something like 'Oh sorry to interrupt you I think I have just spotted a long last relative over there' then run for the hills or let the person run ??

Leavers are destroying our country. Remainers have a right to be angry.

Leavers feel you have a right to be angry even though they have the won the right to do this; that is perverse.

We have, since the referendum, had an election which, while agreeing we have to negotiate leaving denied May the strength to bully through a hard Brexit. Just as those who wanted to remain have to adapt to the overall wish of the referendum, so must leavers adapt to the wish of the election. Democracy means we can change our minds.

This will divide our country and our union if leavers do not realise they are not 'right' they just hold an opinion agreed by 37% of the country.

It is probably better not to get into a political conversation with a stranger but if they raised it it would be difficult to ignore and it is the conversation of the day - every day - at the moment.

I think you would need to get out of the conversation as quickly as you could but she actually sounds like one of those people who think everyone will agree with their views - there is a lot of that within the Brexit community and I think you are right - the press has a great deal to do with this level of arrogance.

I think you had to defend your point of view - as you did - but what an awful position to be put in. You are both adults so either neither or both were in the wrong.

Great post Day6, I think it is our anonymity , it sadly emboldeneds all of us to perhaps be a bit more bullish than we would normal be if we were face to face( obvious not all)
Varian, there is in polite society a thing called ' a sense of occasion ' which you may not recognise in your quest to have your say at all costs. Yes it is certainly ok & important to say ' now is neither the time or place' or we must agree to differ. You are most certainly have a right to believe & voice your opinion, but not any time anywhere, also & I could be wrong(choke choke?) you do not seem to be able to accept another's opinion, or even consider that there may be another way to view a subject .

"You only have to watch Question Time or attend any anti brexit rally to realise that it's the brexiters who are the aggressive ones."

Well, that has not been my experience. I have found many Remainers to have incredible superiority complexes, assuming their beliefs are the only credible ones. There is an arrogance that they have to suffer anyone who dares to have opinions different from theirs.

Having said that, I have been feeling fairly bruised and battered, verbally, over the last year because of politics - not just Brexit.

WHEN has there been any time like this where politics are discussed in such detail, on forums and social media, constantly?

It's strength -sapping, mentally and physically, reading so much in order to keep abreast of what is going on every single day. Screen battles are becoming a way of life. When all is said and done, the words we commit to the screen are old news 24 hours later, such is the speed at which we receive information now.

It worries me that enmity is created. It's not me really. Before social media I didn't ever judge a person I rarely knew on the way he voted. I am mild mannered in reality and my philosophy has always been live and let live. I tend to like most people, take them as I find them and make friends easily. On here the claws come out. Why?

It disturbs me. Politics and religion can make for interesting discussion but also create horrible divisions. Let's face it, there are lines drawn in the sand here on GN and not once has there been jolly banter when people with opposing views go off as online friends, agreeing to disagree.

It's not good to feel this disturbed about relationships even if they are only on-line ones, not in my book, anyway.