Talking about brexit

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/IFGJ5896-Brexit-Report-171214-final_0.pdf

This is an excellent report on what happens next with Brexit.

Was that for the Farage link, GracesGran?
I'd love to know who gave 3 pence.

That's just stepped up the hatred between Osborne and May, GracesGran.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/12/17/brexit-to-be-funded-by-the-exploitation-of-uk-workers/

Interesting times.

t.co/xBQ6WJlFd4

For Farage -loving Brexiteers.

with the £ being so low and possibly falling further - and if working hours and pressures rise- why would they stay?

My OH took his mum to the eye clinic at a renowned London hospital. They had a poster with pictures and names of all the staff in the waiting area. Half were ( non U.K.) European, the other half African or Asian. A bit worrying come Brexit.

It will be 'interesting' to see the knock-on effect on nurses and Junior doctors. Will we go back, with the shortages due to foreign nurses and doctors leaving in droves- to the 'good old days' when junior doctors worked 130-140 hrs a week - like my husband did in the late 60s early 70s?

If that happens, I won't blame any of them for walking with their feet and go to work in the EU- where they will be treated like human beings, respected, given proper funding to care for their patients and the drugs and treatments to do the same (did you hear what Prof Winston said about cancer care when we are kicked out of Euratom?).

Gove and Johnson want to scrap the working time directive.

Which doesn't mean, as the Sun enthusiastically lies to its readers, that workers can get more overtime (you know, when you work more than your contracted hours for a higher rate of pay). It means that nothing will count as 'overtime' so more hours for no extra pay.

And, of course, people expected to work far more hours than the present 48, no limit at all on the maximum. To the detriment of their efficiency, their health, their family life...

act.goingtowork.org.uk/page/m/1f11b257/3ab9ec2e/54d80fa9/540795d2/2523682055/VEsE/

Did Brexiteers expect or vote for this?
Gove and Johnson want to scrap the working time directive.

But when people were told of the difficulties of being like Switzerland ot Norway pre-referendum, that was the politics of fear.
Cherry-picking? Of course we can, we're British!

Amazing how many people still think that. They must read the wrong papers.

It is, to my mind, perfectly fair for the EU to say, no you can't cherry pick. You can't expect the EU that the UK or Switzerland would be able to pick and choose and have, at the end of the day, a much better deal than they themselves have. All the good bits without any of the constraints and responsibilities.

Why oh why on earth woudl they want to do that.

Would you? Really?

Yes Pogs- the EU made it very clear to Switzerland since February 2014 - NO cherry picking- take it or leave it.

So when Farage, and many Tory politicians said again and again- why can't we be like Switzerland? Either they were so ill unbelievably ill-informed- or they were lying through their teeth (as they did on the Single Market, Customs Union, the NHS, Turkey, etc, etc, etc).

Switzerland is now in a particular pickle- because a Referendum, even with such a tight majority- is binding. We have a Direct Democracy. Which is not the case for the UK, where we do not have a system of decision by Referendum where it was clear from our BRITISH LAW, and for all to see- that it was not binding (Cameron had no right to say it would be- as it is clearly against our Sovereign Parliamentary Democracy- where we elect MPs to represent us).

BTW Switzerland is much smaller, but also made up of very distinct regions like the UK, majority German speaking part- which, apart from Basel (strong French influence) and sometimes Zurich, is very traditional, often bordering on nationalistic with the SVP (sort of UKIP) - the Italian part which is a very small minority, and can swing both ways ... and 'my' part, Romandie or the French speaking part- a big minority- much more open and pro Europe. We could perhaps compare with Romandie = Scotland... sort of.

And we have a lot more immigrants here, as well as, in border regions like mine, 10s of 1000s who commute over from France, Italy and Germany to work here.

At the end of the day what is an inevitable fact no European Country either in the EU/EFTA/EEA will be able to have the people of their country decide what to do (plebiscite) the European Union Commission and Parliament is the source of power and you Remain or Leave .

So what, POGS*?

Unless you want your country to live in a totally isolated bubble with no relationships with any other country in the world (because all trading relationships involve regulations, give and take, pragmatism and some surrender of sovereignty) I really can't see what the problem is in remaining in a bloc in which one has a voice and influence and from which one receives innumerable benefits, both economic and cultural, and subscribing to its regulations (which one has had input in framing).

However, if you don't like the fact that you can't cherry pick; especially if you're on the fringes of the bloc, then you leave and isolate yourself.

I really don't know why you expect everything to be in black and white. Life, international relations and global trade just aren't like that.

The UK now back remain over leave by 10 points. People are finally being able to see through all the lies and misinformation and making a more informed decision. This will only grow with time.

jura2

" Even in Switzerland- where the systems is based on public Referedums which are binding- the VERY close result in feb 2014 on the limits to immigration - has resulted in such catastrophic effects on Switzerland in so many ways- that the GVT has not yet implemented it - and is trying to find a way, nearly 3 years later- to implement it in a limited form that will reduce the negative effects - on industry, financial services, massive research projects and institutions, security, Universities, development, etc, etc. "

This has been a point raised on many Brexit threads and we both know the answer why the Swiss Government has not implemented the Referendum result in 2014 to limit immigration .

The EU 'told' the Swiss Government you have to accept the 4 Freedoms/ 4 Pillars OR ELSE! . So it did not matter a jot what the people of Switzerland (plebiscite) voted for in the referendum as a Non EU Member but a member of EFTA Switzerland has to do as the EU Commission/Parliament tells it to..

Switzerland’s economic and trading relations with the EU are governed by a web of more than 120 bilateral treaties that are all linked by a “guillotine clause” – if one is breached, they all collapse.

Like the UK Switzerland was told in no uncertain terms by the EU , ' You will not be able to 'CHERRY PICK' . Hence Switzerland was suspended from full membership of the ERASMUS programme etc. etc. after your referendum to reduce EU immigration.

I believe however Switzerland and the EU are getting closer of late and you have come to some arrangement on the Free Movement situation but am I correct in thinking it needs ratifying?

www.thelocal.ch/20170407/eu-swiss-relations-officially-back-on-track-after-immigration-squabble

At the end of the day what is an inevitable fact no European Country either in the EU/EFTA/EEA will be able to have the people of their country decide what to do (plebiscite) the European Union Commission and Parliament is the source of power and you Remain or Leave .

Oh it does- so wish I could just pop in for a cuppa and a good chingwag Tegan2. It is quite hard not to have anyone here who understands the issues. All our friends here do understand one thing 'they shake their head and say 'why on earth is the UK so determined to destroy itself??? They had been able to negotiate incredible deals from the EU (keep Sterling, and no Schengen ... btw neither seems to have been a good idea anyhow) and had huge infuence- and they were having a brilliant recovery?!? Why oh why? Didn't they study what happened after the referendum on limiting immigration here in Switzerland- and the mess it as brought on, and how it is putting at risk huge swathes of innovation, research, security and jobs- and how even 3 years later, the issues have still not been resolved?

She's also done a runner a la Cameron (albeit not straight away). I need to do a search and read up on all the things she promised us in her Q&A on here prior to the referendum (I know she said we would have cheaper energy bills). She did pop up on the telly a few days ago. Didn't she say a while back that there shouldn't have been a referendum? Gets confusing, doesn't it.

Gisela Stuart is German but has lived here since 1974. She was head of the Vote Leave group, and pictured in front of the infamous bus.

Said on Sky news that Islamophobia in grass roots football has increased and they say it's due to brexit (although I'm sure brexiteers will say that isn't true).

lemongrove, I think those EU nationals who have lived here for many years, worked and therefore contributed to the British economy, paid their taxes and NI contributions should have had the right to vote in the Referendum.
I do know EU nationals (with dual citizenship) who voted leave.

Greta you can’t seriously expect a vote as an EU national living in the UK!
That would have skewed the vote heavily in favour of Remaining ....the vote was only for UK citizens.
After all, which EU national would have voted to Leave.
The referendum had to be fair.

GG you say ‘I find some of the right wing press really poisonous’....
Yes, I can see that but the next part of your sentence...’as ,I’m afraid are some of the comments on here’ ! Really? where?