More Brexit lunacy

jura perhaps you need a mantra!
‘That ship has sailed’ seems as good as any to get it through to people’s heads that we will be leaving the EU shortly.
No second referendums or saviours on white horses will be appearing.

pogs you have been asking the same question for what seems donkeys years now but for some reason have never come up with a suitable answer.

I would like to ask a question if I may.

Do you want to stay in the single market?

jura

That’s an awful lot of wishful thinking from you durhamjen 'the ship has sailed and we are leaving the EU.'

What a mantra- why not put a 'Brexit means Brexit' and a 'strong and stable' each time you repeat it- for even better effect and make it truly believable ;)

durhamjen

Personal again I see.

" Starmer is allowing them to get deeper into the mess they've created. I don't blame him at all."

What do you think Starmer is doing to allow them to get deeper into a mess?

Why is it that when you agree with me you say it so grudgingly. I can feel the disdain in your typing.

I doubt whether Starmer was playing call my bluff. That's just what I said about him. Don't blame him for what I said.
Keir Starmer is playing straight to the letter of the law, just to show people what could happen. But it is a type of bluff, isn't it?

Why do you expect us to know what May and the Brexit gang of four don't know?
In other words, why don't you just give up asking for the impossible. Your head must hurt by now with all that banging.
Starmer is allowing them to get deeper into the mess they've created. I don't blame him at all.

durhamjen
" It' s a game of call my bluff, POGS.

Brexiteers say they want out. Starmer is just showing them what will happen if we do leave."
-
A Game! If Starmer is playing a b----y GAME he is going about it in an odd fashion by making declarations such as no 2nd Referendum, We respect the Referendum Result etc. etc. etc. then flip flopping all over the place.

For the 1st time I agree with a paragraph by one of your favourite bloggers Jack of Kent /David Allen Green when he says:-

" What is changing is the steady reduction of time, and the widening awareness of UK’s inability to address the problems."

Perhaps if our politicians had not played a game of ' Call My Bluff ' and had worked together and not tried at every step to 'get one over' the other, decided to work for the good of UK PLC not the EU PLC , the reduction of time would have resulted in an ability to address the problems '.

jackofkent.com/2018/01/where-are-we-now-on-brexit/

That’s an awful lot of wishful thinking from you durhamjen the ship has sailed and we are leaving the EU.

There are 27 member countries in the EU, but Germany and France call the shots and will influence ( in oh so many ways) as they always do, the decisions because they want our money and to continue trading with us.

It's a game of call my bluff, POGS.
Brexiteers say they want out. Starmer is just showing them what will happen if we do leave.
Eventually, and hopefully before it is too late for our children and grandchildren, they will say they didn't mean it.
Then they will either allow parliament to have a meaningful vote or a second referendum, and all will be back to normal.
In fact it probably won't because the EU will have had a big fright, and we will probably end up with the concessions that Cameron got us before the first referendum.

"Except we are only out of the single market if we leave the EU."

Well obviously , yes.

That is only a statement of fact .

I do have some sympathy with your point, POGS. The whole thing is such a confused mess that it completely defies logic.

Such a shame that the electorate weren't better informed about exactly how the single Market works before the referendum. After all, we had leading Leave campaigners blithely promising that we could stay in the Single market while at the same time promising that we could control EU immigration... It was never going to make sense, was it?

Except we are only out of the single market if we leave the EU.

No I am not arguing with myself.

Lord knows I have been arguing continually with anybody who has stated we can join EFTA and be like Norway or the EEA.

How?

If both parties say the Free Movement of people will end, we will not be abiding by the 4 Pillars and cannot remain in the Single Market. That is why it is 'disingenuous' to continue with the clap trap the UK can stay in the Single Market , whether it is a Tory, Labour, journalist, or even Gransnet Posters who have been doing so from the referendum result.

If you know and understand what Keir Starmer is saying then please tell me , what is the difference between Labours " We want A DEAL , not THE DEAL" and the Conservatives "We want a BESPOKE DEAL "?????

Unless there is ANY DEAL by ANY PARTY Labour /Tory/Spotty Dog that can bridge the stalemate over the 4 Pillars and Free Movement of People then we are out of the Single Market . The EU have said 'No Cherry Picking' from the start.

It seems to me that you are just arguing with yourself, POGS.
We understand what Keir Starmer says; you are not listening, that's all.

I’m a bit unclear of the issue here. I do think that you are muddying the waters in your argument.

It is as I think you have recognised that leaving both the single market and customs union on Brexit will mean that the 4 pillars will cease.
I think however, that the government’s “disengenuous” belief that we can remain in the single market emanated as a result of the assumption that a bespoke deal could be negotiated, which would of course include becoming a member of sorts of the single market. However we can really have no clue because neither does the government.
That has been the biggest problem, in that the government failed abysmally to actively pursue a post Brexit plan prior to invoking Article 50 and present these to the EU almost as a fait accompli. It didn’t happen, we are left with the result.

What has become really clear since Christmas however is that the EU 27 have no intention of allowing a bespoke deal and I assume although I wouldn’t hold my breath that the government has taken this on board, and will give this attention when planning what a Brexit Britain will look like.

Your remarks about free trade etc I assume are rhetorical?

I don't think anyone is being disingenuous. How can we know when the Conservative's intentions are declared differently, by different cabinet members, daily. I certainly sounds as if we will have to continue with free movement for the "transitional" period.

My hope is, that during this time the government actually gets itself sorted and puts in a proper registration system, both inward and outward, during this time. A system that could have been put in at any time during our membership of the EU.

whitewave

"so it seems that the only deal on offer will be Norway, who is in the SM but not the CU. "
--

Being a member of the EU / EEA / EFTA requires abiding by the 4 Pillars.

End of .

Labour and the Conservatives have both stated The Free Movement of People will End so please explain how this continual disingenuous belief that we can Leave the EU but by joining EFTA remain in the Single Market .

It is not a question of what anybody 'wants' it is the ' fact ' the two are not compatible.

The Single Market is a poisoned chalice to some and to others it is wonderful. The Single Market is ' Protectionist' Trading' and that obviously appeals to some but not others.

Oh

white wave

"pogs when you say we’ve been in a debate since the referendum I assume by that you mean that the debate is between the U.K. "

Nope.

Between myself and you.

GG MK 2

"The Labour Party are doing the right thing in this instance as they are not the government. They have set out what they need to set out"

Labour say they are a 'Government in Waiting'. so I don't think they can play that sort of game .

"They will honour the referendum and leave. "

That is true and they have admitted to leave means leaving the Single Market / Customs Union, at least they do on some days.

"They have also said they want to protect jobs which means 'a' customs union. "

Yes they have - but what is the difference in rhetoric between 'A' CUSTOMS UNION and a ' BESPOKE' CUSTOMS UNION other than terminology ???????

"Keir Starmer seems to be steering the LP well as far as I can see."

Starmer faces two ways dependent on who he is talking to and when. He has said as Labour spokesperson ' Free Movement of People Will End'. and admits' on occasion ' that does not conform to the Treaty rules of abiding by the 4 Pillars so the UK could not stay in the Single Market, other days he gives the false impression we can stay in the Single Market.

There is a fag paper between both the Conservative and Labour Party when it comes to EU Membership and the Single Market debacle and it's been months of wasted negotiating time because 'honesty' has been trumped by partisan politics.

No good for UK PLC.

pogs when you say we’ve been in a debate since the referendum I assume by that you mean that the debate is between the U.K.

The debate with the EU is hardly off the starting block, if at all.

With regard to a bespoke deal. The EU 27 made it crystal clear in their last press announcement that the only deal on offer will be either Norway or CETA. As we have locked ourselves into the arrangements regarding Ireland, I can’t see how CETA can work, and in any case our main export being services CETA has nothing to say about that so it seems that the only deal on offer will be Norway, who is in the SM but not the CU.

The reason that we will have to adhere to the 4 pillars if we want a Norway type deal is obvious and doesn’t need explaining to you I am sure.

I am not sure that you are right to be so certain on no 2nd referendum, there is a sea change going on at the moment, particularly as it becomes more and more clear what a future post Brexit Britain will look like.

As far as I am concerned the biggest worry is that the government simply does not know what it wants and shows no sign of beginning to address this problem, other than having major rows between themselves. They only have about 9 months to put together the most complicated plan ever asked of a government. I have no confidence that this will happen.

The EU does know what it wants, and (unless the U.K. has a total change of positioning,) that is exactly what the U.K. will get.

It is obvious to me and I’m sure many others that we need to extend Article 50 beyond the 2 years, but the headbangers will do everything in their power to prevent this.

My question is why? Why not give the U.K. every chance it has to get this right? What is the rush?
Why can’t we sit back and decide if it is the right decision?

Or the "swivel eyed few" according to Claire Perry (Conservative MP).

The Labour Party are doing the right thing in this instance as they are not the government. They have set out what they need to set out. They will honour the referendum and leave. Presumably if there was a huge change in the country that would change but I don't think anyone sees a huge change in the in/out numbers. They have also said they want to protect jobs which means 'a' customs union.

There has, apparently been a change in what sort of Brexit Labour voters want. They now want a much softer one than the Conservatives are being forced to at least appear to be wanting because of the roughly 30 Brexiteers who are controlling their party. Keir Starmer seems to be steering the LP well as far as I can see.