Interesting? Frightening?

Jalima my family thinks of nationalism as something involving Scotland and England

curlilox it certainly proves racism isn't something you are born with, it's something that is taught. Religion in education in the early 1900s was a huge issue too and very divisive. Part of the population didn't agree with government being used to support denominational schools. The 'Doubters and Dissenters' objected to the funding of faith schools including Church of the England schools, but the real problem was Catholic schools. The protesters called it Rome on the rates and prejudice against Catholics was rife. Even when I went to school in the 60s in Scotland, fights were organised between Catholic and Protestant schools. I moved to England at age 14 and the same thing happened in my new city. I was definitely taught at school that the only real religion was Catholicism and it was only when I moved to an interdenominational school that I realised how wrong this teaching was. Fortunately my parents were not overly religious.

Is it always acceptable then for people from other countries who have never contributed in the past (or likely to in the present) to immediately jump to the front of the queue for benefits and housing. How does that help local people who may have worked and tried to save for years to buy their own home but can never manage it but who have been denied social housing because not enough is available or, at the least, they have pushed down the queue by newcomers. Maybe we should ask them how they feel. If you think it is so important for refugees to have homes then I assume you would be willing to give up your own to accommodate them.

This seems to bring out the very worst in people, sadly.

Good post Maggiemaybe.
It reminds me of a chat I had with second son who teaches in an international school in India. I asked him if there were any racial problems among the pupils. He thought for a long time (as he does) then said, "Only that the light-skinned Indians look down on the dark-skinned Indians."

Well I voted to remain, but would never assume that everyone who exerted their democratic right to vote the other way is a racist. Nor can I see that what was taught in schools (everywhere, I should imagine, not just in this country) a hundred years ago is particularly relevant today. What matters is changing twisted attitudes now. Those of us who actually have recent experience of living and working with significant numbers of people from other cultures know that there are tensions between various groups that need to be addressed. For instance, the first wave of Polish children who arrived at my school were rapidly pulled out when the second wave, Polish Roma, came over. Some established Asian families were vociferous about the EU migrants "coming over here, taking our jobs". We need to stop seeing racism and xenophobia as an English problem, and work together to change attitudes. And some of us need to get those big fat motes out of our own eyes first.

Wilmaknickersfit Well said. I read that article about Bute and I believe that there are several areas where people feel the same.

I agree Luckygirl. Why did the EU not have a policy for dealing with refugees? They have armies of bureaucrats. They could have sent some to get people registered so that those that were entitled to help got it easily and in a managed way. Instead they ignored the problem for years until it reached crisis point and then Merkel panicked. We should have been able to give priority to refugees over people from Eastern Europe at least for a short while.
EDL represent no one but themselves, certainly not the vast majority of Leave voters.

Yes curlilox same with my DOM and a lot of other peoples, her yearning for an England as she saw it was so that her grandchildren could live as she did. She is now part of history but that feeling has obviously carried on hence the way the Brexit vote went.

When my mother was at school in Britain in the 1920s she was taught about the differences between the races. It wasn't much different from Hitler's view! We still have her school geography atlas and it's blatantly racist. It's no wonder we still have problems.

The article is from 17th March 2017 and the first line is:
Brexit is English nationalism made flesh

That in itself is an inflammatory statement as many Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish also voted for Brexit.

Why did I fall into the trap of Scottish Nationalism?

Jalima1108....I didn't feel the need to talk about other empires as the OP and thread was about the UK.
Fair enough vq, I hope you didn't mind me mentioning it as it does seem to be a trend on here that only the British (usually defined as English!) had an Empire.

So many places around the world are named after Scots and Scotland - that is why I thought it was worth mentioning that point.

Can't believe I didn't notice the date maggie. I'm annoyed now. Giving oxygen to organisations like the EDL is toxic to our country.

This article is much more useful than the one in the OP

Update on Syrian Refugee Families Living On Bute

There's no point in denying xenophobia exists in the UK, but let's not feed it.

I'm not so much interested or frightened as a bit puzzled that a link to a 9 month old article has been posted, along with a paragraph that I don't really follow about an EDL visit to Scotland. Where is this "small local town", why was it of interest to the EDL, and did they get a coach there or something? Having worked in a school with over 600 pupils speaking 28 languages, many of them asylum seekers or refugees, in a town with a very high proportion of minority ethnic residents, all for the most part rubbing along amicably, I can only remember one very lack lustre EDL demo there, so can't imagine why they would travel so far to you. Can we have more details of this demo please?

Jalima1108....I didn't feel the need to talk about other empires as the OP and thread was about the UK.

As a Scot I can confirm that racism is alive and well in Scotland, but the circumstances are different to England. It has a small population, so from an economic growth perspective Scotland needs more economic migration than the rest of the UK. Research by the Scottish government does indicate that people in Scotland are generally more welcoming of migrants than most other parts of the UK. Of course that does not mean there's no attacks on migrants, but people who are different have always been targets. Despite this, the information also suggest that just like the rest of the UK, in Scotland the majority want to see an overall reduction in migration. A sizeable minority has concerns about the impact of migration on the labour market in Scotland. So there's a conflict between Scotland needing to grow its workforce and the population wanting to reduce immigration. It's all about perception. The truth is that you can go to places all over Scotland and not see any ethnic minority people, or virtually none. They mainly live in the larger towns and cities because that's where the work is. Yet people will talk about immigration as if they are surrounded by migrants.

Oh I agree with you Luckygirl about the reason why workers from poorer countries move to the richer ones. That's happened for thousands of years. But if the UK government had put in place the kind of restrictions as most of the other EU countries (Ireland and Sweden are the other 2 countries which did not) on the people who could move here after 2004 from the new Eastern European member countries, we may not have experienced the huge influx since 1994 from the new Eastern European members. The appeal of the UK would have been much less. The government couldn't do anything about the economic migrants coming to the UK from existing EU countries, but it could have introduced a major change to those from countries that joined the EU from 2004.

I don't agree with you though about the EU lacking clarity of thought because of the process a new country has to follow before it becomes a member.

From the Europa website

The process of joining the EU (accession) broadly consists of 3 stages:
1. When a country is ready it becomes an official candidate for membership – but this does not necessarily mean that formal negotiations have been opened.
2. The candidate moves on to formal membership negotiations, a process that involves the adoption of established EU law, preparations to be in a position to properly apply and enforce it and implementation of judicial, administrative, economic and other reforms necessary for the country to meet the conditions for joining, known as accession criteria.
3. When the negotiations and accompanying reforms have been completed to the satisfaction of both sides, the country can join the EU.

The EU does not just let any country join. All member countries have to agree at the start AND at the end of the process. Can't see Russia ever being allowed in! But more to the point, do you remember that sensational headline last year that 70 million Turkish people could soon come to the UK? During the referendum campaign the Vote Leave campaign announced immigration projections based on Turkey, Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, and Serbia joining the EU in 2020. Albania and Macedonia haven't even started any negotiations and the other countries have barely started the process. Then Penny Mordaunt (Defence Minister at the time) said that the UK would not be able to prevent Turkey from joining. She was wrong because each member state can use its veto at both the first and the third stage of the process. The second stage takes years, even decades.

For example, Turkey applied to join the EU in 1987, but it was 10 years before it was even accepted as a candidate and it didn't start negotiations until 2005. There's 35 chapters (areas of negotiation) to be completed by each candidate. Turkey has only completed one chapter (Science and Research - completed in 2006). Fourteen other chapters were started, but in 2006 the EU decided until Turkey changed its position on several crucial policies towards Cyprus, no further negotiations would take place. This is because the policies in question concern matters relevant to those 4 basic EU freedoms. David Cameron remarked that it would be the year 3000 before Turkey could be eligible to join the EU. Very few people know about the accession process, so the Vote Leave campaign could get away with this scaremongering about immigration. Of course, this was not about nationality, but religion because Turkey is predominantly Muslim and the other countries have a large percentage of Muslims.

The problem with the EU is its size and bureaucracy now makes progress on any issue a lengthy process, but I would rather be leading the process of reform from the inside of the organisation than be outside the club.

Some of the newspapers have racist headlines on a VERY regular basis. It is very worrying. I fear that when we struggle to balance the economy post Br exit, the immigrants will be blamed. Remember those 'rivers of blood'? I have two mixed race G.C. I am terrified of what might happen to them in the future.

My point about the EDL and Orange carry-ons were that these were people who had come up from England and across from NI to spout their hatred in a small town in central (not the west) of Scotland, which generally votes SNP, voted to stay in the EU and whose people have (with a couple of vociferous exceptions) gone to great lengths to welcome our Syrian refugee families.

There has been no problem here with the influx of Polish incomers, probably because we are used to Poles because many were billeted locally during the war, married local lassies and raised their families here. There were 4 children with Scottish accents and Polish Surnames in my class at Primary School.

I do not know about the situation in England but from reading reports of violent attacks and racial abuse, it appears that the main targets are immigrants with dark skins and their British born descendants. These people have nothing to do with the EU's free movement laws, as most have migrated from the Commonwealth Countries, but rabid Right Wing Brexiteers seem to expect that they will all be banished as soon as Brexit takes effect. I cannot claim that there are no racist incidents locally as we have a few of our own indigenous hiedbangers , but then most black faces round here belong to students, doctors, nurses, restaurateurs and shopkeepers - valuable and respected members of the community.

I have noticed a change since Brexit became part of our language with zenophobia being accepted as a valid point of view for many. I have also noticed, mainly in the comments after articles in National Newspapers, extreme hate-speak being directed at the Scots, Irish and to a lesser extent, the Welsh. Seems that many in England want rid of us too.

I just can't see immigration being reduced easily. Over the last twenty or thirty years, people travel overseas far more than previous generations. People work abroad more, holiday abroad more, study abroad more, buy property abroad more. Employers recruit from around the world. People are more likely to meet partners from different countries online or in person than in the past. Family links mean we are increasingly connected to different cultures.

The world has shrunk. We have instant telephone connections worldwide, news from around the globe is broadcast instantly. The internet means we read news and opinions from all over the world.

I just can't see this being reversed in the near future whatever immigration restrictions are imposed. Economic migrants and families or friends will put pressure on the rules and quotas to travel, study, live and work where they want to.

Orange Lodge marches are a symptom of the sectarianism which is fostered by religious apartheid in schools. NI suffers particularly from this, but it is also endemic in some parts of Scotland.

No at all Wilma - all information is useful.

People do not however move to another country simply to tap into their benefit/health system, but for a better standard of living in general and better job opportunities. This inevitably leads to a transfer of people from poorer to richer countries and the unfortunate potential for a backlash from the indigenous population.

I do not think the EU is clear about what its aims are and it just bumbles along with romantic ideas of harmony, not realising that it is initiating the exact opposite.

Orange marches are a west coast phenomenon - not Scotland-wide.
I have never witnessed one and would not choose to!
Equally I am not aware of any increase in racist attacks locally but that may be linked to the fact that this area voted overwhelmingly to stay in EU.
As far as I know, Scotland has welcomed a disproportionate number of refugees.
When I see some of the 'national' headlines in msm I really am glad to live in this tolerant corner!

Luckygirl from the very beginning, at the heart of the European Union sit four key principles: the free movement of goods, services, capital and labour.

These four freedoms were enshrined in the 1957 Treaty of Rome and reinforced in the 1986 Single European Act, the 1992 Maastricht Treaty and the 2007 Lisbon Treaty.

However, free movement of labour or people does not automatically mean access to the public purse in every country. Far from it. You can move to any EU country to work or live, but you can't just arrive and apply for public housing, benefits, health care etc. Every EU member state decided at the time of the legislation I've mentioned above what its own laws would be to deal with this kind of thing. The member states can't just change these laws at a later date. What can and does happen is that when candidate states complete the accession process meaning there is to be an enlargement of the EU, the existing EU member states can decide to treat people from those candidate states in a different way to existing member states. This is where the UK cocked up in 2004.

I don't mean to teach you how to suck eggs, so apologies if I have given too much information.

A leading Glasgow-based charity which helps immigrants and refugees across Scotland says racist attacks are not uncommon in the city, as five are arrested for an alleged firework attack on a refugee in Springburn.

Robina Qureshi, who runs Positive Action for Housing, says attacks on refugees often go unreported and believes many are in denial about the true extent of the problem in the city.

I cannot comment on Orange marches as I think are a peculiarity of Scotland and N Ireland or where there are populations of Scots and Northern Irish such as Liverpool.

Please do not tar the English with the brush of the EDL just as we would not assume that the Scots are racist or bigoted on religious grounds because of the actions of a few.

Well, I don't know about that as I have not come across any but I will take your word for it.

I am glad you say that Scotland is not now xenophobic to the extent of hate crimes (although I can remember some which made the news in the past) - but I must just point out that the Scots took an active part in building the British Empire as it then was - now the Commonwealth of which so many countries are happy to be part and which other countries who were never part of the Empire wish to join.

These very few hateful people should be stopped and it should not be assumed that, because they are vociferous, the English are hate-filled xenophobes like them.