NHS

Primrose says: "I think a hypothecated tax is the best way to fund the NHS too. Then it's simple to administer, easy to see what you pay for and you know where your money is going. I don't see why politicians are against it. I'd rather the funding was made simple and transparent."
I thought that this was the way to go as well, but having been thinking about it a bit more I have changed my mind.

People object to paying more into general taxation for various reasons but one reason is that they don't agree with various things that the tax money is spent on. For instance some people object to money going towards Trident, other people object to money going towards foreign aid.

I think if we had a separate tax for the NHS the same sort of objections would be made against paying it.
Some people would object to money going towards keeping elderly people alive, some people would object to paying for fertility treatment.
So the same problems would arise as with general taxation.

Jen, you have not answered the questions I asked you. Actually, you've sort of agreed that this would be massively inflationary - as that is the measure of 'the money going around the economy' and 'the money in the system'.
How inflationary?
How would the tax structure change to combat this?
Or what would the impact of that inflation be?

If tax is simply a method to reduce inflation, not raise revenue, why would changing the NI cap put more money into the NHS? Surely it would simply be a contraction of the economy, using your preferred MMT.

You're contradicting yourself with every post. Do you understand what you're promoting?

inews.co.uk/news/health/man-dies-waiting-ae-dangerous-overcrowding/

Another very easy way to put more money into the NHS is to stop the cap on NI.
All working people should pay NI at the same rate no matter how much they earn.
Why should someone who earns over £866 a week only pay 2% on that?

No, primrose. He says you print the money then pay people more, get them building houses, etc., so the money goes round the economy.
Would Toys r us or Maplin have gone into liquidation if there was more money moving round the economy?
The tory government have been doing the same thing, but giving the money to banks instead of businesses. Then it has been kept in tax havens instead of being used in the economy.
If we renationalise the railways and utilities, the money will stay in the system instead of being syphoned off into tax havens.

For the many, not the few, to coin a phrase.

He doesn't answer those questions at all Jen.
Neither do you.

It just shows how easy it is to say stuff that sounds great, but you really only need to think about it for 5 minutes and it all falls apart.

Maybe you should read more taxresearch.

I don't agree with MMT, but perhaps I don't understand it properly. If you print the money for the NHS as suggested, what changes to tax would be needed to counteract the inflation? What rates would people pay?
It sounds like you're suggesting you print the money, then take it all back in tax from people to stop inflation.
How's that any different to the average person than now? The outcome is exactly the same. Pay tax. Would it be more or less than people pay now?

What real changes would a £10 minimum wage make? How many people on minimum wage at the moment also receive means-tested benefits that would be decreased?
Wouldn't a large increase in the minimum wage simply benefit people who are middle income already?
Wouldn't it shunt up the median income, meaning that more people would be below the 60% threshold, therefore in poverty?

All these things have been discussed before but these sorts of difficult questions are never answered.

How about an extra property tax on houses over £5 million?
That might get a lot of Russians and Saudi Arabians to leave London.

One purpose of tax is to stop inflation.
"Reclaiming the money the government has spent into the economy. As already noted, it may appear that tax revenue is being used to pay for government services supplied but that is not true: government spending always comes out of funds the government borrows from its central bank. Tax, in that case, reclaims the money spent to prevent excessive inflation. The amount reclaimed is that which is considered sufficient to leave the desired rate of inflation in the economy."

Can you tell me what is wrong with money going into pay, i.e., increasing the minimum wage to £10 an hour?
Employing lots more builders to build the houses we need?
Paying cleaners and careworkers £10 an hour?
They are much more likely to spend the money in the local economy rather than hoarding it offshore.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/10/denied-free-nhs-cancer-care-left-die-home-office-commonwealth

In the meantime the NHS treats people like this.
Is that acceptable to you, primrose, just so tax fraudsters can get away with it?

Murphy is suggesting printing all the money to pay for the NHS, I'd consider £126 billion this year pretty excessive and an inflationary action. Just to make it easier to understand, that is creating/printing £345 million every single day of the year. The problem is that a large proportion of that money would go directly into pay wages, so it's massively inflationary.
To think that he wanted to be a Labour Party economics advisor when he produces this sort of stuff is frightening.
Mark Carney ultimately decides how much is printed.
You decide what you need to buy with your own money.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/03/05/mmt-and-tax-havens/

What's an excessive amount of money?
Who decides how much needs printing and what we need to buy?

But that's not tax fraud Jen. Two different things altogether, as I'm sure you know. I'll stop being childish if you'll stop being wrong

Don't be childish, primrose, pretending you don't know about tax havens.

Are there any historical precedents of countries printing excessive amounts of money to pay for things they don't have the money to buy Jen?

The government does force big business to pay the tax they owe. Who are the tax fraudsters who don't pay what they owe? Why have you not reported them to HMRC?

If the Government forced big businesses to pay the tax that they owe then they could give it to the NHS. Why should they avoid tax when the rest of us get clobbered if we owe them 5p?

Or on the other hand

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/03/07/tax-does-not-pay-for-the-nhs/

Get the tax we are owed by tax fraudsters. Then we will have enough money without having to pay more.
What is wrong with asking people to pay what they owe?

I think a hypothecated tax is the best way to fund the NHS too. Then it's simple to administer, easy to see what you pay for and you know where your money is going. I don't see why politicians are against it. I'd rather the funding was made simple and transparent.

The trouble is that people use the NHS for any minor thing so that they can get free treatment. ie, drinking so much that they collapse in the street, knowing full well that they will be picked up and taken to hospital. Or taking drugs to get high knowing that if anything bad happens the NHS will deal with it. The NHS was not meant for that purpose. The doctor is the first port of call for non-emergency cases. When you call out an ambulance it costs the NHS £300! Just think of that before you call for one. If people were billed they would stop using them for minor illnesses. Also there is a lot of waste in the NHS. Pills oversubscribed for example. Nurses going sick for a couple of days so they can work as an agency nurse and get twice as much from the private sector...yes it does happen. I am not getting at nurses. They are not paid nearly enough for what they do. It is a dirty, smelly, messy, stressful job and I think they should get a pay rise, which imo is long overdue. Mrs May could find the money to give to the N.Ireland woman so she would prop up the government, at a drop of a hat. There is money in the pot but it seems that the Government (whoever is in) thinks it is their money to spend on whatever they like. I hate being described as a 'bed blocker' in the press. It is pensioners who have supported the NHS from day one. When we need help for knees, hips or anything else that comes with old age they say they cannot afford it.

Well it's no surprise that our old friend Farage turned up on Fox News with his particular take on why our NHS is in trouble, prior to Trump's tweet. I am definitely no fan of Hunt but at least he replied quite robustly in defence of NHS - bit hypocritical tho

You would have thought that if they wanted more money for the NHS, that would have been the way to go, to tax more people for it rather than their rich friends.
I think it isn't necessary as there is enough money hidden in tax havens to pay for the NHS for decades, but they don't want to do that, either, do they?

The NHS report sounds like a move in the right direction with a hypothecated tax.

Tories have tried to kick in the long grass though.