Are older people today out of touch politically with younger generations?

^ but I do not believe we should have to channel our foreign aid budget through Brussels^

We don't actually channel our foreign aid through Brussels. We have our own foreign aid budget we which allocate quite independently of 'Brussels'. Anything that comes from the EU is a bonus for the countries concerned. And, to be honest, I really cannot see that the small proportion of EU International Aid which comes from our contribution is likely to be added to our Aid budget.

We will pay our dues to the EU and then be free (I hope) of paying BILLIONS a year to Brussels - or £375,000,000 a WEEK.

No, you said hundreds of billions, I copied and pasted it from your post.
It is generally accepted that actual payment to the EU, when accounting for the rebate, regional aid which comes back and things like the Single Farm Payment, is about £9 billion. It would take 10 years to 'save' even £100 billion, so much longer for your 'hundreds of billions' to materialise.

And, of course, the figure doesn't take into account the £ billions which return to the UK by way of trade with EU countries; the value of which is set to diminish, particularly with the loss of income from our main export (44%) to the EU, financial services, which we will lose through loss of passporting rights and the movement of financial service HQs to EU countries.

"helping individual members to develop their economies and achieve the standard of living that we have in this country is for the benefit of us all"

I am all for aiding countries in distress MOnica, but I do not believe we should have to channel our foreign aid budget through Brussels and allow spending to be at the whim/desire of unknown bureaucrats.

I feel it is much healthier for us to determine such spending. We are not a bunch of shysters or buffoons or economically illiterates in the UK. We are also a compassionate nation. We can determine these things ourselves, to and for the benefit of UK taxpayers. I look forward to more accountability and transparency when our billions aren't transferred abroad in 'membership fees'.

Excellent post M0nica.

Excellent and informative posts Day6.....but they won’t be appreciated by posters who are determined to carry on talking the UK economy down.

Sorry to disappoint, but I am happy with someof the money we contributed to Europe going to countries like Rumania, Greece, Latvia and Estonia in the same way I am happy to see the taxes I pay go to support the railways, education, industry support and a host of sectors that I do not benefit from.

A united Europe helping individual members to develop their economies and achieve the standard of living that we have in this country is for the benefit of us all, bringing countries together in mutual support as well is offering greater opportunities for trade and investment to our manufacturers.

What bothers me so much about both Brexit and other such movements in countries world wide is the selfish, 'I am all right Jack' attitude that is unconcerned that their selfishness condemns the less fortunate, especially if they are not British, to poverty and disadvantage.

M0nica nobody is saying you have less rights than younger voters. The voting in the election and in the referendum shows that the older you are (over 65), the bigger the gap gets between the over 65s and the 18-24s. We are living longer, so this isn't a generation gap of a single generation, it's a gap of two generations. This is about how our society is changing as much as anything else.

If we're going to start rehashing the pros and cons of Brexit, then I don't see the point of this thread. It's not the subject of the OP and it's a futile discussion.

skiing is not compulsory ;) for wild flowers end of June, early July is best. I can even do B&B ;)

Thanks! DH hasn't been there either, so it is on his list too.
(Although not for ski-ing.)

Jalima- apologies- mistaken identity ;)

Well if you do make it over- get in touch and we will meet up for coffee or lunch- and a good chinwag. Happy to give advice on how to do it 'relatively on the cheap' too- great by train, or EasyJet and if you avoid big towns and resorts- hôtels and B&B are cheaper than UK. You can get special tourist trains+buses+ most cablecars and boats tickets too for tourists- excellent value.

Wilma KF - "I may have misunderstood, but isn't the reason for the weak and fluctuating pound mainly down to business and the markets not having confidence in the Brexit negotiations?"

Wilma, as you know, currency is always fluctuating. Nothing new there. Of course after the referendum people imagined a tsunami of a crash on the pound, which didn't happen. Forecasters, including the Governor of the Bank of England, got it very wrong, by his own admission.

I think we have to expect continued fluctuation until a few years after Brexit is a reality. I might be wrong. I am no economist but I imagine most people would expect the same. There is lots of hopeful news regarding the economy out there, post referendum. The PM has just clinched a £9billion deal with China, before Brexit.

Below is an update from today which outlines how the pound does fluctuate but has also made gains over the dollar and the euro. Good news, I'd say.

THIS - from Pound Sterling Live. ie: written today by James Skinner.

"Pound Sterling appeared to shrug off a surprise fall in the IHS Markit manufacturing PMI data on Thursday, when it clung to earlier gains over the Dollar, Euro and broader G10 basket.

January’s IHS Markit survey showed the manufacturing index slipping to 55.3, down from 56.2 in December and below the consensus expectation of economists for an increase to 56.5.

However, Sterling's reaction confirms the obvious - the manufacturing sector continues to expand at a solid pace and will continue to provide support to the economy

Nevertheless, the result marks the second consecutive month of decline for the index, taking it back to a level last seen in June 2017, although it still remains substantially above its long term average of 51.7

"The detail of the report showed that most of the decline in the headline PMI resulted from a moderation in the pace of current output and new orders.

Still, with the flow of new orders continuing to come through at a healthy rate, firms registered an improvement in prospects for future activity. Accordingly, manufacturing firms continued to hire additional workers – the pace of which picked up over the month," says Nikesh Sawjani, UK Economist with Lloyds Bank's Commercial Banking unit.

The IHS Markit PMI is a survey that measures changes in business conditions in the manufacturing industry from month to month. It asks respondents to rate current conditions across a range of areas including employment, production, new orders, prices, supplier deliveries and inventories.

“Manufacturing output continued to rise at a solid pace, although the rate of expansion eased to a six-month low...Sector data signalled solid increases in output and new orders across the consumer, intermediate and investment goods sectors,” IHS Markit say, on releasing their findings.

There is however undeniably good news to be found in findings that the recent trend of rising export orders gained further momentum during January, which is good news for the Pound, with foreign demand rising at its fastest pace for over four years.

Much of this increased demand came from North America, China, Europe and the Middle East

www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/8431-pound-sterling-uk-manufacturing-starts-2018-on-a-firm-footing

I'd say the outlook is very promising. I don't expect the next few years to be plain sailing in terms of the economy - does anyone? - but there are many reasons to be optimistic.

From the Telegraph _ "How much does Britain pay to the EU?"
The origin of the £350m claim appears to come from the Treasury's statement on the amount the UK was forecasted to spend on the EU in 2015.

In 2015, the UK’s full membership fee was estimated to end up being £17.8 billion. This is the rough equivalent of £350m per week, the source of the Leave campaign's controversial slogan.

When all the sums were actually totted up by the Treasury in a report in February 2017, this figure was found to be higher, at £19.5bn (£375m a week)."

However, although we pay that amount, I appreciate, we get a small proportion back in EU spending. The EU however determines where the money goes.

We will pay our dues to the EU and then be free (I hope) of paying BILLIONS a year to Brussels - or £375,000,000 a WEEK.

However you want to look at it, that's a lot of money we won't have to fork out in the future. We will be able to determine where in the UK and how taxpayers money is spent. It won't be going to Germany, or Slovenia or Estonia or Latvia or Greece or Romania etc, etc, etc.

We can determine where our foreign aid budget is best spent.

The other EU member countries will have to shore up Brussels' budget when it has a shortfall of £19.5 billion every year. Many have claimed this is why the UK divorce payment has to be so high.

Many, if not most over 50s, have at least 20, if not 30 or more years of life ahead of themselves. While we live we have as much right as anyone else to reach decisions about what will happen in our lifetime.

Who can tell what our circumstances will be in 30 years times? Brexit may be a total irrelevance by then. By then most of today's obstreperous youngster's will be in their 50s themselves and probably taking an entirely different view of the subject.

Nonnie sorry, but I still don't understand why you mentioned Dominic Raab. . Also, if you read my post with the two charts attached, you can see for yourself how likely it is that the Brexit decision would change if a referendum was held now.

you did live in Switzerland for a while, yes?)
No, in fact I've never been. It's on my 'bucket list'. There was a school trip to Switzerland in the 5th form but DP couldn't afford it; however my BF went.

Day6 I may have misunderstood, but isn't the reason for the weak and fluctuating pound mainly down to business and the markets not having confidence in the Brexit negotiations?

I don't think younger voters are dismissing the opinions of older voters. I just think that they firstly don't agree with the reasoning of older voters, and secondly resent them voting for changes will affect young voters futures to a much greater extent than their own, especially an irreversible change like Brexit. I don't think young voters are dismissing the experiences of older voters either. It's more likely that they don't think those experiences will be particularly relevant to their futures in our fast changing world.

Personally, I am not sure myself about a second referendum- but I am absolutely sure that our MPs, who represent us and our Parliamentary Democracy- should have a properla meaningful vote, with all the facts, figures and impact assessments, as well as the final deal- at their disposal.

That is what we have elected them for- and have done some for centuries. The Lords should not be gagged either- again, they are part and parcel of our own Sovereign Democracy- again for Centuries.

If you want Direct Democracy à la Switzerland- then you better start asking for our whole system of Politics to change- bonne chance. But as you keep saying you want our own Government and Laws, this is a bit confusing, for sure.

You are welcome Jalima. BTW, as you well know (you did live in Switzerland for a while, yes?) - Switzerland is made up of 3 (+1) very different regions. The French speaking part, the Italian part (the small Romanche part) and the majority German speaking part. And the differences go way pas just language, but also culture, attitudes, history, etc, etc.

I live in the French speaking part, where I was born and bred- and we are in a similarly frustrating position as Scotland in the UK- eg a very large minority. This is even more so in a direct Democracy based on Referendum after Referendum - where we are almost always just 'pipped at thepost' by the German speaking part- despite mostly voting with a large majority in our part, differently. The French speaking part, is much more open to Europe and the world, and open to immigration and a mixed society (50% in many areas). We also have a very different economy- where I live based on watch making, mechanical engineering and 1000s of research companies and institutions, which have a very multicultural personel and work with other EU research groups on some of the top research projects.

Day6 Most of the EU rules, directives and regulations are being incorporated into British law from the time we leave the EU and would have been legislated for in the UK in much the same form anyway.

You also seem to have overlooked that as well as giving money to the EU, the EU then reinvested much of that money in the UK on infrastructure and environmental projects.

Thanks jura

Lack of EU directives gives us a different way forward, puts hundreds of billions of pounds in our coffers..

Can you explain where this 'hundreds of billions of pounds' is coming from, Day6?

If there were a referendum to decide whether to hold another referendum on whether to leave the EU would the result be any different?

Just before the last one I was out with a couple in their 80s who were very definitely remainers (contrary to popular opinion that the old all wanted to leave) and their son of about 50. He was so anti EU it was unbelievable and it was all about immigration. Since then he has complained that he has seen lots of immigrants around. Well the only way you can 'see' them would be if you thought all immigrants had brown skins.

I don't think all old people look back, I think many of us look forward but remember the past some fond memories and some not so good. Of course we will base our opinions on our own experience and of course that does mean we have more experience than most of the young people. We have very interesting discussion with our children without either side blaming the other for anything.

how YOU KNOW that this is not a fact? Please.

Well Jura we reach impasse in many ways because neither Leavers or Remainers can accurately predict the future.

What has been interesting is that even the governor of the Bank of England has admitted that all the predictions of a crash pre Brexit have NOT materialised. Financial experts have been having to eat their words when the crash they predicted after the referendum, the scaremongering, proved to be incorrect.

The Sun reports, just this week "LONDON beat every other EU city to be crowned tech investment champion of 2017 despite the move to Brexit. The capital had more technology money pour in than the rest of the top ten combined, including Paris, Dublin and Berlin.

Despite dire referendum warnings that they would leave, tech firms in London attracted £2.45billion in venture capital funding in 2017.British firms had almost four times the funding of German rivals.

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan called it “further proof London is the undisputed tech capital of Europe and I am committed to ensuring we take over from Silicon Valley as the world’s leading tech hub”.

Digital Minister Matt Hancock said it was “excellent news”. He added: “The UK’s tech sector is leading the world, creating high value jobs and that is something we should all celebrate.”

Many, many headlines regarding manufacturing and the service industry illustrate that the UK is still a big player and we are more than capable of prospering once we leave the EU.

I prefer to hope for the best, backed by all I read. You are looking to the worst case scenario always, and I am not sure why. I see much hope for a successful outcome. Perhaps the way we voted in the referendum had much to do with disposition as well?

I could fill this thread with positive reports about a bright economy post referendum. You could fill it with articles of a negative outcome. Many who voted Remain are now accepting we are leaving the EU. I think acceptance is the way forward instead of pouncing on the daily minutiae of negotiations.

Not talking about this Referendum, but the one of February 14 on limiting immigration- which was very close too.

The Swiss GVT have been trying since then to find a compromise with EU- allowing limitation of immigration, but keeping CU and SM- and the reply, again and again- has been a firm NO from EU. There might have been a chance for a compromise to quietly succeed- but the UK's Referendum has made that impossible. The EU can't be seen to have a compromise on Free Movement with CH, but not with UK- so NO for both. Switzerland is in a really difficult situation now- as most realise now that there would be very serious consequences if we lose access to CU and SM and Schengen- but at the same time- Referendums are binding here in the Swiss Direct Democracy (totally different to the UK, where a Referendum can never be anything but advisory- Cameron had no right whatsoever to promise anything else). Switzerland and UK have totally different systems of democracy- based on a very long history.

As for a new Referendum on EU membership- this now would be totally the wrong time- due to the Brexit saga and mess.