Male staff in women's refuges?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equality act, something that all political parties need to remember. Women are not there to validate men who are unhappy, particularly when they are at their most vulnerable. Women and girls deserve to retain their hard won, sex based rights. They deserve privacy and dignity. This rush to be inclusive is harmful to some of societies most vulnerable. This is not progress. 90% of trans women are heterosexual males who come out as lesbians. The days of the transsexuals we have always lived alongside are over, it's all about the inner feelz.

Easier to clean is the first thing I noticed too!

Easier to clean! That's it.

Do men receive significantly lower pay than women, in any job you know of, simply because of being men? Do men feel equally outraged by that unfairness to women?

Do men feel themselves equally at risk? Aware of having little physical strength? Possibly unable to run away because of their "fashionable" shoes?

Is it because it's easier to clean? The name made me laugh - a provost in Scotland is a ceremonial head of local government.

Wrt feelings about unequal pay/personal security. Those are not uniquely female feelings. Men may well feel the same way about such issues.

To introduce a lighter note, for a moment, I was once told by a female assistant in a plumbing showroom that the male plumbers did not understand her remark that "Women would like this toilet."

www.heatandplumb.com/acatalog/premier-provost-toilet-nch400?utm_source=google&utm_medium=Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAk4XUBRB5EiwAHBLUMWC_dCkwptEnDBV2CG_nYO8cJgoJ6fDUMNlsXv3CQExyli3OpY-EHRoCm1IQAvD_BwE

Have a look and see if you can work out.

Sue, have you read about the disparity in salary between males and females employed by the BBC?
How did you feel about it?

I felt outraged that a woman would be paid many thousands less than a man, while having similar experience, skills, and job requirements.
I expect many, possibly most, women felt the same.
I wonder if many men (trans or not) felt equally as outraged by it.

Have you ever felt a bit nervous, walking alone late at night?
I expect many, possibly most, women have felt like that.
I wonder if any men (trans or not) have felt equally nervous about that?

All I know Sue is that whilst all biological women have various experiences of feeling like a woman with issues related to their biology, not one single transwoman and expeciallt one with a fully working penis can never ever ever experience this.

And the Labour Party and their position on SI is a damn disgrace. But remember this whole SI debacle is cross party. There’s no where to turn for political support - we have to provide our own.

No one has yet been able to tell me what it means to 'feel like a woman'. What does that even mean? Do all women feel the same? Do all men feel the same? I think not.

Yet. The Labour Party has appointed an 18 year transgender male as. Woman's officer

Transgender men have their own issues to deal with. It must be a hugely difficult time – both emotionally and physically, if they are coping with massive hormone replacement and surgery. I have known a couple of men who have gone through the whole process of sex change and I recognise how very difficult the process was for them. It was the right thing for them and they are leading satisfying lives now and I am happy for them

Now, someone going through that very difficult and confusing process is not what you want when you are looking for support and security because your world and your sense of self has been destroyed.

And I am of the belief that it is completely nonsense to say "I feel like a woman" when a) you are a man so you have absolutely no idea what it is like to feel like a woman; and b) you want to remain biologically a man but be treated like a woman. This may well be an arguable position – but not for a woman whose life and sense of self has been shredded – by a man.

Absent, thank you for the courage to talk of your own experience. It goes right to the heart of the notion that women should once again be expected to accommodate and mediate for the benefit of men.
MAryliza, a thank you from me as well. I was one of the monstrous regiment of women who got together in the seventies and put our efforts into eg starting the first women’s refuge in our town, alongside other attempts to work for equality. I’m less politically active these days but you are right, we have to take on this new orthodoxy. I notice that the women being called radical feminists by certain members of the press, who are visible in their opposition to the more aggressive trans lobby - those rad fems look like my friends ?. I will write to my mp and talk with the women involved forty years ago in fund raising and campaigning for the refuge which is, of course, still working.

Thanks Maryeliza54,Yes you are right , back in the day I was a very keen campaigner for rights injustice of woman,the underdog etc. So yes this could well be the time to put pen to paper again. It’s certainly a changing world & it is important that everyone feels safe & comfortable when using public facilities.

A brave and courageous post absent.Bridgeit you’re right about the need to consult with those who will be affected by these developments but that means all of us - all we women and all decent men who value and respect women and want them to be as safe as possible and to continue to benefit from women only services and safe spaces as necessary and appropriate. Common sense won’t prevail - only political expediency. We have to take on this new orthodoxy that is being imposed on us - write to our MPs, write to the PM,write to all the members of the Women and Equalities Committee - our silence will be seen as our consent. Sign the petition about WA - write to WA. At least more of us now seem to appreciate that SI is about more than toilets and changing rooms - if only it were just that.

Absent, you are so brave to share this with us , it is yours & others who have had similar experiences who should be consulted about the impact that the requests of transgender, self -identifier etc will have on woman’s daily lives. It seems we are heading into murky waters, let’s hope that common sense will prevail.

The kind of abuse that drives women to refuges goes far beyond broken arms and black eyes, however terrible such things are. Abusers diminish their victims, making them feel worthless, useless, incompetent, unlovable, stupid, ugly, bad mothers and many other loathsome things. It takes a massive amount of courage to leave a familiar life – however gruesome that life may be – and your home, perhaps with your children too. That in itself is emotionally exhausting and fear of being found and taken back is constant and desperately wearing.

The understanding and support of other women – both workers and other residents of the shelter – is a vital part of the healing process, which can take a very long time and is often two steps forward, one step back. Even with all the help available some victims cannot bring themselves to confide all the ghastly details of what they have been through, especially if they have endured sexual as well as violent abuse. (Although I would argue that sexual abuse is violent abuse.) Certainly there are some things that I never spoken of to anyone – therapist, GP, close women friends or family – and still have nightmares about. Talking to a man about such things is inconceivable.

Any woman in such a vulnerable state needs the absolute security of being inaccessible to men – any men, however kind and caring and however they choose to define themselves. Such a woman can no longer trust her own judgement – that's part of the abuser's process of undermining her – so she needs and deserves breathing space in a wholly safe environment and that means one in which she feels wholly safe. The presence of biological men whom she has never previously met and has no reason to trust would not provide that environment. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Whilst I believe that people should be able to self identify,I do think that this is one area where woman should not have to be forced to be politically correct. If someone was attacked-by an animal, we would expect them to feel un comfortable /scared if they had to be in close proximity to similar animals. They certainly shouldn’t be forced into hiring them just to meet some acceptance quota. Also if the men are genuinely identifing as woman, surely they should be the very first to acknowledge this.

The men self identifing as woman, who are trying to be sports people, should be assessed in the sort of terms that they use for the para-olympics.
Men in general will have more muscle strength than women and should compete as males. Allowing self identification is just plain wrong.

I know this isn't the subject of this thread, but I saw a rather indignant thread on twitter a few days ago complaining about SI men/women competing in women only races (I believe the sport in question was running or triathlons) where they have a physical advantage over women.

Remember all the furore over rather 'masculine' female Olympic athletes and sex testing? Where does this leave women's sport now?

Well said, Iam64.
However well-meaning the man might be, he is still someone who has not had lifetime experience of being female.
It's also impossible for women to know whether he is well-meaning or not so he is not the right person to try to help them.

I can’t imagine why anyone with knowledge of domestic abuse perpetrated by men against women and children can see it as in any way appropriate to have men working in women’s refuges.
I hope I don’t offend anyone by suggesting that men who identify as women are unlikely to have lived their formative years as women. I understand some of the complexities around gender but, I’m not convinced that men who remain physically male and may have unresolved issues around sexuality are the right people to be offering support and guidance to vulnerable women and children

Was discussing this with my friend, who has never been troubled by attempting to be PC. She put a whole different light on the issue by relating her experience, working for the LA for 25 years as a home help. As she was classified as a PART-TIME WOMAN she was denied entry to the Council's pension scheme, whereas her DH employed part-time as Night Reception/Security in the Council Offices was admitted to the scheme and now retired has a small pension. By the time the LA changed the rules the Home Help service had been outsourced so my friend did not benefit from the changes.

My friend declared that as she was only a part-time woman she would self identify as a MAN for the rest of the time (i.e.during her working hours) and put in a back dated claim for the higher wages and pension benefits she would have accrued.

Has she found the answer for women still pursuing equal pay with male colleagues?

Yes JT is doing a sterling job and is much respected amongst those of us who have been fighting this issue since Maria Millar came up wth her private members bill over a year ago.

Thank you Maryeliza for the link - what an excellent article - logical, informative, clear and well expressed - these SI developments are very worrying - and I'm glad the author referred to the journalist Janice Turner who has written excellent articles about this issue and the negative impact on children & young adults - she's received lots of hate mail for doing so.
As the article says - women's voices are not being heard - we are being ignored, sidelined or silenced - "trans rights" are being promoted as more important than women's rights & women's safety.

Gosh! This is all bringing back memories. I suppose if you think I’m being sarcastic then I must accept the blame and that I’ve brought this tirade on myself.

Sorry...