News from the opposition

Only 25% of U.K. tax revenue comes from income tax. 18% comes from NI which starts at a low income level (£150 pw roughly) and is a very regressive tax charging 12% until you reach the upper limit £866 pw and stop paying any more.
A very unfair tax.

Regressive taxes such as council tax, national insurance and VAT don’t help.
And the “bedroom tax” of course.

Defining poverty is always a minefield.

I am beginning to believe that, not only do some people care little about the 10% with the lowest income Jen, they actually think they need to be punished for some anti-capitalism sin.

He also said that it cannot be fair that the wealthiest will gain and that the lowest 10% are being hit the hardest.

McDonnell brilliant on Corbyn and Russia as well.

I'll watch that tonight, then, GracesGran.

I think John McDonnell has answered my question on Peston this morning.

He said that "at the moment the lowest income, the lowest 10% pay 40% of their salary; the highest 10% pay only 34% of their income.

Of course, you could always find your own statistics to back up what you think.

fullfact.org/economy/wealth-uk-richest-1-and-poorest-20/

The reason it is difficult to find out information about tax rates and poverty is because the government always wants to change the basis on which these statistics are collected, in order to portay themselves in a better light.

fullfact.org/economy/one-in-five-poverty/

To show that income tax is not the only direct tax?

I'm not sure what that link is a response to Jen.
It's about how benefit reduction works when you earn more money. That's not a tax. I still cannot see how you got the "bottom 10% paying 47% of their income in tax"
That's just not possible, especially if they pay no income tax.

fullfact.org/economy/do-you-pay-higher-tax-rate-millionaire/

Ah - I thought this was about the amount of tax paid in general, not specifically income tax.

My misunderstanding.

GG It sounds as though this is really a question about tax avoidance rather than income tax rates.

I suppose it is difficult to find out exact figures because wealthier people spend more, buy more expensive goods therefore would pay more in VAT etc.

That hasn't been mentioned in the articles I have found Jalima and, to be honest it doesn't make sense. Yes, as you say, they have more disposable income but income tax is meant to be paid on your whole income - before you go out spending. If they are not paying a reasonable level of tax, it seems they are doing it at the expense of people who have no disposable income because their basic income - which they are unable to hide from the tax man - is not enough to live on.

Can you explain how it's worked out then Jen, as mortgage and rent payments are not taxed at all and VAT is 20%.

The bottom 10% paying 47% of their income in tax is actually worse than it sounds, as they do not pay any income tax, being exempt because they earn less than the personal allowance.

You do know these figures are averaged out, don't you?

It's difficult to generalise on things like this Jalima, I think. If you buy highly taxed items, whatever your income, you're going to be paying a lot more in tax.
A low-income household where there's no car and no smokers are probably paying less than 47% of their income in tax.

I suppose it is difficult to find out exact figures because wealthier people spend more, buy more expensive goods therefore would pay more in VAT etc.

Thanks Primrose - I'll have a look. It isn't a big thing but it does irritate me.

There are datasets on the ONS site regarding income distribution which you use it as a basis for the numbers you're trying to figure out.

Even our prime minister makes that mistake.

fullfact.org/economy/do-top-1-earners-pay-28-tax-burden/

You can read round and round Fullfact and still not get the answer to that.
I wonder why it is made so difficult to find out.
Perhaps they do not want us to know that the bottom 10% pay 47% of their income in tax.

The second half of your sentence explained it anyway.
There are lots of taxes we pay, not just income tax.
You wanted to know the amount of TAX the 1% pay, not just the amount of INCOME TAX.
Quite simple really.

Ah - I see, I should have written it more clearly. It is often said (by the Tories) that the top 1% pay 27% of taxes. Or, they sometimes say that the amount paid by the top 1% has risen in the last few years.

Firstly, they do not pay 27% of all taxes. That is just sloppy and spin. They pay about 27% of the income tax paid. What I wanted to know is what percentage of income they are paying that on. For example, if the top 1% took 27% of annual income paid in this country 27% of income tax looks very low on these very high incomes. I haven't been able to find the figures of income distribution that relate to this. I can find wealth distribution but you could come by all your 'wealth' in one year and 'earn' (earned and unearned) nothing so it doesn't seem relevant.

I hope that makes more sense but I have probably over-explained as usual.

It's not abusive at all! It's simply answering a question.