Would Labour turn this country into a communist state?

so it sounds as violent revolution has been thought about but considered not to be a practical solution.

It doesn't really need to be 'thought about', Jalima. Anyone with a basic knowledge of world history must know that the imposition of 'communism/socialism' has, so far, only happened after a violent revolution. I can't see that anyone (barring a few maniacs) would consider such an option for even one second.

Are you seriously suggesting that the idea may have been considered by people in the LP?

The old Clause 4 was written in 1918 from what I can see. We may need a knowable LP member to put us right on this, but that may be why it's clunky Bridgeit.

Blair and the party under him were "democratic socialists" (which sometimes seems to be interchangeable for social democrats and sometimes not). The LP under Blair changed the old Clause 4 I quoted to this in 1995.

The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect'.

Dates, etc., are thanks to Wikipedia so I am sure someone will have more detail than this.

Well, me neither Fennel

But I am still rather confused about the terms being used. As far as I could tell, Blair and government were social democrats, Corbyn, McDonnell, Momentum are 'democratic socialists' but please correct me if this is wrong.

Robert Rynn, political education officer of Carlisle Labour Party (personal capacity), claimed that bringing about socialism would require "violent revolution", and that the best system is a "mixed economy" with the state controlling basic services such as energy and the railways, while private industry was left to "innovate" in other areas.
www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/26876/14-02-2018/carlisle-debate-socialism-or-social-democracy

so it sounds as violent revolution has been thought about but considered not to be a practical solution.

I’m not surprised that the LP got rid of it, the first sentence reads very positively,but then becomes unclear of how this would work in actuality.

Does the old Clause 4 sum up "Communism" for some. Was that why the LP got rid of it?

Old Clause 4
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

"I think the term communist conjures up an image akin to dictatorship"
Good point Bridgeit. I know Corbyn used to rant and rave when he was young, but I can't see him turning out like eg Stalin, Putin, Ceausescu, Mao or Castro. Though I believe Castro mellowed a bit when he was older.
And their equivalents on the right such as Franco,Mussolini, Hitler or Kim Jong-un ( or is he a communist too?)

I don’t think we could be turned into a communist country, but we can be frightened into thinking that we could be run by a government which may have communist sympathetic leanings

I think the term communist conjures up an image akin to dictatorship, because that seems to be the reality.
True communism is nigh on impossible to adhere to other than in a small community. All things can never be & will never be equal & or fair.

An attack on democracy in the housing speeches?

24housing.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=ddd12a1ee3330a83986ae5fc5&id=834d58818c&e=23ddde61eb

Failing councils will lose planning powers. Tory government decides which councils are failing.

What do you mean by Social Democracy Jalima - as you think Democratic Socialism is "further to the left".

I thought we were discussing what Communism means and what it is that people actually fear that to them, using that word, expresses? Maybe though, the above would throw some light on the issue. Mind you we will still only be guessing unless the users of the word explain for us.

I'm rather confused now; are you saying that we would head for revolutionary communism and it is nothing to fear?

Noooo. Sorry, I didn't put that very well although, if you had read my previous post you would know I think we should oppose anything that leads to the death of democracy be it revolutionary communism or fascism.

What I meant is that I do not believe that this is what the Labour Party intend so currently do not fear it but certainly try to be aware of any attacks on democracy. However the only one's of that have happened recently have come from the right not the left.

Isn't this a bit of Whataboutery. "What about" it if I didn't fear the actuality of communism? That is not what we are discussing is it? I thought we were discussing what those who have thrown that term - communist/communism -about on these threads mean by it, and what they actually fear.

I thought they were more democratic socialists now, veering further left than social democracy.

2 questions:

In what way are they 'veering further left than social democracy' Jalima?

Is this your opinion?

Difficult for those of us who don't fear revolutionary communism Maizie.

I must confess, GG that I would be rather wary of revolutionary communism. Unless you are conceiving something rather different from the historical examples...

Difficult for those of us who don't fear revolutionary communism
I'm rather confused now; are you saying that we would head for revolutionary communism and it is nothing to fear?
I thought the reassurance was that we had nothing to fear because the present Labour party is nowhere near being communist.
I thought they were more democratic socialists now, veering further left than social democracy.

If someone could explain that, I would be grateful.

Difficult for those of us who don't fear revolutionary communism Maizie. All we can try and do is tease out the exact meaning and fears of those who do fear it. It seems that people who use this word either actually don't know exactly what it is they fear or can't manage to explain it. I am not sure how we will ever know if that is the case.

In answer to the original question:
Would Labour turn this country into a communist state?

I do kind of wish

a) that I hadn't given this thread that silly title
b) that people would read my opening post

I am really trying to find out out just what it is that people fear about Labour

I really think you have to explain that Annie. I have not seen anything to show it is undemocratic and would like to know just what you have. That is an enormous charge to make.

Would you like to name any, eazybee?
I can't think of a single one.

The Labour Party was always a Democratic Party, not now

Socialism can be totally democratic - not sure fascism can.

In answer to the original question:
Would Labour turn this country into a communist state?
no it won't, but some of its less charming members would like it to do so.

has have

There is a big difference in being scared of communism and being concerned about a government with communist beliefs

You could say that what some are showing a fear of (as they don't seem able to explain) is some sort of totalitarian regime. We has some reason to fear; good people have supported a totalitarian state within the lifetime of some forum members - but that was a right wing totalitarian state. Surely what we should be worried about is any attack on democracy.

Are we what we call ourselves or what others call us? Some seem (rather like Trump did with Bernie Sanders) to be muddling up "socialism" and "communism". Members of the Labour Party see themselves as democratic socialists (as does Bernie Sanders).

It is easy to see the reason why the confusion arose. During the cold war the words "socialism" and "communism" were used interchangeably. This seems to be what some older people cling to and younger people do not understand - they have no wish to see a totalitarian state. They look to countries which have "democratic socialism" - which is used in an equally confusing and annoying way as interchangeable with "social democracy" - such as Sweden, Denmark and other Scandinavian countries. They are clearly not "communist" by any definition. Indeed Demark is said to be one of the happiest countries in the world, with Sweden, Norway and Finland being among the most happy and Norway is listed by The Economist (hardly a left wing part of the media) as the top of their list for democracy.

Maizie: It's- a democratic socialist party and members/supporters believe in democracy.

But this seems to be what its non-supporters, and some former supporters, think is not true...

Back to your original question, why? Non-supporters are bombarded with 'fake news' from MSM, confusing socialism and communism for their own ends.
And the former supporters are losing their positions, due to democracy in the current party. so of course they don't like it :-)

Another thing I am wondering is who do people expect those they say are on the "hard left" or Marxist or Communist to vote for?
Labour is the only party of the left.

I'm not particularly worried about an answer to that particular question, dj. I just want to understand just what it is that people fear.