Russian spy attempted murder - what should the UK do?

Whatever happens, we can't go off half-cocked! We need a measured, informed and diplomatic response before we resort to 'convenient' jingoism and war (Cold or otherwise). It may well have been Putin, but it could also be Russian Mafia, our own Governement, or another unknown party intent on manipulating us. Facts before action.

To make Russia look strong under Putin - to impress the electorate and emphasise what a hard time the 'West' is giving them.

Craig Murray says in this article, published two days ago, that the UK is refusing to provide a sample to the OPCW.

Is that still the case? I would support the Government's refusal to provide a sample to the Russians, but the OPCW surely need a sample and all relevant information if we are to retain international support.

This is exactly what I was querying GD. I would have thought the same as you with regard to Putins reaction, which leads to the culprit being the Russian state, but why now? with the world cup in particular just around the corner?! It's certainly 'odd'!

‘Likely’ is not enough. There are further tests which can be carried out by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, to establish the facts beyond doubt.

They are the experts.

As a scientist (albeit retired) I know you must have proof before making an accusation as it strengthens your claim.

Grandad - because , as someone said earlier, they regard the UK as no more than an irritating fly buzzing around their head.
Maybe westerners would react like that when they have a guilty conscience, but not the Russians.
There's a big cultural difference, and they have huge arrogance ( also big election on Sunday.)

Another look at the lack of 'proof':

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-novichok-story-is-indeed-another-iraqi-wmd-scam/

There are those in this thread that clearly still question the direct involvement of the Russian state in the Salisbury attack and it is quite correct that they should if they have genuine concerns. However, the above begs the question why the Putin Government reacted with mocking, disparaging and insulting remarks not only against the United Kingdom government, but also to those in Salisbury caught up in this "assault" in which on the ground the repercussions are still ongoing.

In the above, Surely if the Russian Government were genuinely surprised at the allegations leveled against them being they were not in any way involved, then the correct procedure would have been to engage with the British Government and lay out the evidence demonstrating how the allegations were unfounded.

I believe that the above reaction by the Russian state government gives clear indication that there is involvement as the mocking and insulting statements brought forward by the heavily influenced Russian media and other state bodies has been to act as a deflection from the need to seriously engage with UK government by way of normal diplomatic channels.

Therefore, perhaps those who feel that the Russian government was not involved in this attack on Britain could demonstrate by way of this thread why Putin and those surrounding him reacted in the way they have, rather than with respect to those affected and engagement with counter evidence to the UK government and others.

Absolutely GG. The only reason for these constant attacks and hysterical derision (much of it very personal and unprofessional in tone) in the media about Corbyn, is fear.
Many in the establishment fear a Corbyn Government would be the end of the gravy train that they have enjoyed for so long.
(To be honest it’s probably an irrational fear as I’m not sure Corbyn could change much in the short term.)

Well said Mr Stoltenberg!

mostlyharmless

Re your post concerning Jens Stoltenberg.

He said this too:-

Speaking to BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Friday, Mr Stoltenberg said Nato has "no reason to doubt the findings and assessments by the British government" which suggest Russian responsibility.

He said the "UK is not alone" and Nato allies give "strong political support" to Britain, following a joint statement from the US, France and Germany backing Mrs May's government and a pledge of support from Australia.

Mr Stoltenberg said the incident was part of a "pattern of reckless behaviour" from Russia following allegations of cyber attacks and election meddling in recent years.

"It is important that Russia gets a clear signal that it costs to behave the way they behave," Mr Stoltenberg said."

These attacks by the press don't seem to be having the effect that they desire though, if you think back to before the last election, and the attacks they made on the Labour Party under its new leadership. it just seemed to turn people off the mainstream media, particularly younger people.

I agree that as regards the Salisbury incident, we just don't know, although it does seem likely that Russia is involved somehow, not necessarily the Russian state.

I personally thought that the atmosphere in the House of Commons the other day was rather hysterical, that Mrs May was being pushed by Boris Johnson and the like to come down hard with the condemnation of the Russian State and that Jeremy Corbyn did her a favour by trying to lower the temperature.

nigglynellie wouldn't Putin's attitude have been different? Well actually "No" who ever did it, accepting responsibility would be a vote-winner for Putin- the strong arm of Russia is long and even gets those who think they are safe-. The other thing of course to consider is that both parties involved are coming up for election and allowing a little murder might help both. The daughter and the policemen are of course collateral damage
Putin reinforces his strong man image and Theresa builds a coalition of the frightened who believe they must unite and not ask questions.
It isn't half as simple as some seem to imagine.

None of us on GN can possibly know what is going on behind the scenes it would be ridiculous to think we can. As for the Salisbury debacle I would rather believe in the UK doing the right thing than Russia .

The fact nerve gasses/chemical weapons have been used in Syria and the pathetic response from the rest of the world has shown the likes of Putin there is no challenge to their use other than the same old rhetoric of condemnation resulting in Russia and China vetoing any proposal by the UN to do anything substantial.

The Russian Presidential Election is a farce and oddly two of his opposition that held any chance of removing him from office were either imprisoned on what most believe to be trumped up charges, Alexei Navalny , or murdered , Boris Nemtsov .

Will Putin do a Xi Jinping after his next Presidential period has ended I wonder and give himself the possibility of 'ruling' until ' he ' chooses to resign?

Trisher and Mostly I agree with what you are saying. We just don't know. It is dreadful and the Russians have at least some blame to shoulder as they made the stuff and were supposed to look after it according to international law.

The attacks from the media and his own party on Jeremy Corbyn are dangerous. If our own MPs - particularly the leader of the opposition - cannot ask questions on our behalf from the government while supporting them in their description of what we know, what has happened to democracy. This is from an older article about the press, Corbyn and the Labour party but it is true here too. The article title says that the Tory press is playing a risky game [with our democracy] and I believe this is even more true with the current events.

But here’s why it is sinister. Ever since Corbyn became leader, there has been a systematic attempt to strip away Labour’s democratic legitimacy. The Labour leadership has been relentlessly portrayed as Britain-hating terrorist sympathisers, as potentially mortal threats to the nation and its security. When the election was called, the Sun front page demanded “Blue murder” to “kill off Labour”, while the Daily Mail demanded that May “Crush the saboteurs”. In the post-Brexit political landscape, of course, the mainstream press even labels judges as “Enemies of the people”. In their efforts to smear Labour, and delegitimise them as an acceptable political force, British Toryism is destroying democratic culture in this country.

The NATO Secretary General on R4 Today programme this morning, agreed with Corbyn’s cautious approach and prioritising “political dialogue”.

If it wasn't the Russian state, and, as has been said, a rogue element, surely Putin's attitude would have been different. Obviously he we wouldn't want to admit to russian lapses in security, but he does seem to be cocking a snook at us! But again, why now, what for? when Russia clearly has a nice cosy set up with us/ the west? Thinking about it, something does seem odd here!!

There probably are all sorts of nasty things traded on black markets around the world, but blaming Russia is hardly convenient for anyone.

I keep saying Jen, everyone is just voicing their opinion. Posts saying 'you have proof' are not helpful. If anyone had proof, they'd be working with the government, not posting it on Gransnet. I'm just trying to voice an opinion that even if the Russian state were not involved at a primary level, they do not appear, in public, to be helping.

I'll leave you all to it.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a Russian state poisoning, but it seems a strange time to choose to deliberately upset the UK.
Just before the Russian elections, just before Brexit (potentially closer trade links post Brexit) just before the World Cup.
And Russians are made so welcome here, contributing generously to Tory party funds (£30,000 to Gavin Williamson was agreed only a few weeks ago) buying up London property as speculators.
Why would they want to alienate UK? Something doesn’t make sense here.

It seems to me that blaming the Russians is actually not just convenient for the conservatives government but much less alarming than looking at the alternative which is that the nerve gas has somehow found its way into the illegal arms trade. Given that Russia has problems with illegal activities in all sorts of areas I don't think that is beyond belief. Of course the idea that there is out there a stock of nerve gas being traded to any organisation, or person, with the cash to buy it is very scary. The possibilities for its use are unthinkable. And who knows this attempt, which is being viewed as Russia trying to assasinate an ex-spy, might just be a way of trying it out.

Perhaps they didn't know?
You seem to have proof that they did, so perhaps you can tell us what it is and where you got it from, primrose.

The man who invented it lives in the US now and says that the Russian government has not made any of it, so you know more than he does as well.

His comment was pretty unhelpful. He should have said Russia needs to disclose the full extent of their Novichok nerve agent program and how it was disappointing that, even when UK citizens were hospitalized, people who were clearly not a target of anyone, they provided no help in determining which nerve agent was used.
The Russian state had information that could have made the diagnosis of the policeman and others quicker and easier. In the unlikely event that they were not involved (which I doubt) their behaviour has been highly obstructive and confrontational at the very least.

I heard him say that too, pathetic.

Helpful comment from our defence secretary: “Russia should go away and shut up”. This would get laughed at in a school debating society.

He seemed to imply that they were not Russian any more; they were all British. I wonder if they know that.
Hope Fullfact are looking into that claim.