Hadley Freeman on Self ID of gender in The Guardian

fairplayforwomen.com/womans-place-uk/

Here’s the link

And here’s the link to that banned organisation A Woman’s Place - it’s absolutely chilling isn’t it that their meeting has been banned. Thanks lemon

Interesting Elegran and good posts from you and also
MaryEliza on this subject and I totally agree.

www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-04-12/cardiff-hotel-refuses-to-hold-campaign-groups-event-because-of-bigotry/

Please read this - not so much a slippery slope as chucking women under a bus. Welcome to the world as it will be - the Orwell reference couldn’t be more apposite could it?

'Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4. If that is allowed, all else follows' 1984, George Orwell. I think Orwell would have found this double speak of self ID too absurd even for his dysfunctional society.

Yes it is the first experience reported here but there is evidence of other situations - we know WA are consulting on having SI women working in their refuges: we know there are SI women in women’s prisons, we know a woman was given a SI woman nurse to do a cervical smear test after requesting a female - it’s not a slippery slope that might lead to other things - it’s happening now - oh yes and the Hampstead Ponds.

Ah, but the first experience anyone here has reported meeting a man identifying as a woman occurred in a toilet.
It's a slippery slope, leading to all the many other issues.

When I first started discussing this on here, I got hardly any response and then it was all about toilets - it’s better now than it was and we’ve had some helpful visitors from MN. You’re right When it’s hard for many women to accept that this could be remotely true.

It seems to me that one of the reasons that there is not more fuss about this is that many people don't believe that it could possibly be true! I know that I have had that reaction when discussing it with friends, and I think they think I'm making it up. I couldn't possibly!!

Elegran, you wouldn't ask though, would you? Not much chance of anyone carrying it around with them anyway. Then new GRA amendments propose that in most circumstances it will not be allowed to ask to see proof of 'gender'. In any case, what would you do with the 'gender fluid', who may be a man one day, woman the next and agender the next?

It is hard to grasp that people will just be able to legally change what they are biologically with just a piece of paper. No surgery, no hormone treatment. And we will have to go along with it. It is such a pile of crap I can hardly believe it's happening.

The problems could come, not from men who feel that they are women, but from men who don't feel at all like women, but who give that excuse when discovered in places where women feel that they can relax and let their guard down without a voyeur or worse. If women ask to see their amended birth certificate, will they be accused of lack of sensitivity to these men/women?

I absolutely accept that there is a small number of people who experience body dysphoria and they deserve help, support and respect. But I say again and again the vast majority of these SI TRA are MEN with penises and testicles. They are MEN with no intention of transitioning - they are mysoginistic and simply want to obliterate the whole meaning of being a woman and the rights that we have VERY recently gained - and then not completely. I’m very gender critical anyway so the idea that the concept of gender can replace the concept of biological sex is utter and complete RUBBISH

Maryliza54 you are absolutely right, there are many greater issues here than loos. If I were building a public place right now, all the loos/changing rooms would be along a corridor, floor to ceiling walls &doors and available to anyone. Problem solved.

The bigger issues are as you describe and also for me around language. We use language to order our thoughts, so if we have to say man is woman, woman is man how long till we have to say hate is love, slavery is freedom? What kind of mess will the law become if people's 'gender' is all-important, sex no longer is? Gender is fluid across societies, epochs, even families - how is it possible to record that? We're already seeing crimes committed by biological males who ID as women actually being recorded as committed by women. Big skewing of all stats is looming. This all utterly regressive. We still have time to stop it.

MaryEliza and others have articulated very well what their fears are over SI and you are choosing to ignore those concerns, Trisher.

Women transitioning to male will not be taking away any of men's rights; however the reverse will in many cases be taking away the protected status that women currently have, which has been well-documented through this thread.

As for sports, was Laurel Hubbard truly competing this week on an equal playing field with her weightlifting opponents? It didnt seem like it, to me.

So how do you think these people will impinge on how you live your life*maryeliza54*? Because the ony complaints there seem to be on this thread are about loos etc. I have tried desperately to try and imagine how a man who thinks he is a woman will do what you describe and quite frankly I can't think of one instance. I know women who are bigger and strionger than me. I've seen men who are weaker and frailer than some women. Yes there are instances where someone may not wish to be counselled by someone but that can happen for many reasons, you ask for a different counsellor. There are women who would like to be able to challenge men at sports as well, should they be denied that right? And of course I suppose self identification will go both ways and there may be women who choose to self id as men.

Biblical women - damn it

I am so sorry when the discussion on self Id focuses yet again on changing rooms/loos. There are potential solutions here with self contained cubicles ,floor to ceiling doors and with wash basins, waste bins and machines for emergency sanitary protection. This will take time and cost money. But the real issue is the whole definition of what is a woman - it’s not a feeling, it’s not keeping your self physically intact as a male - the real issues are our our rights as biological women to have safe spaces, to have a female hcp if we wish, to have a female rape counsellor, to have a biological women only refuge, to have crime statistics committed by biological males to be recorded as male crimes, to have women’s sport only open to biological women, to have initiatives to encourage or reward females in various ways only open to biblical women. I’m a TERF and proud of it - the vast majority of SI males have all their bits btw. I’ve lived life as a biological women and experienced all that means - including fear of bigger stronger males - I will not have a bearded man with his dangly bits telling he feels like a woman and so can impinge on how I live my life as a woman ???????

MissAdventure My local swimming pool has recently introduced signs in the male changing room telling men they must not strip in the communal shower. I assume something has been going on. In fact arguably young boys using the facilities would be in danger if this is the case. Communal changing rooms with the same restriction and cubicles would possibly be safer for everyone.

Haing read Trisher's post about beards while I was typing , I agree that you can't totally equate beards with masculinity - but if anyone is changing their public identity from male (more testostorone, less oestrogen, naturally causing beard growth) to female (Less testosterone, more oestrogen, naturally causing less or no beard growth) then it would seem more likely that they would eschew the hairy caveman look.

trisher, you are right that unisex loos may be the answer, as are unisex swimming pool changing rooms (I mentioned this on the other thread - at our pool everyone must wear appropriate swimwear in the showers, for example), but in a single sex loo, at a quiet time, I think most of us would feel intimidated by the presence of a person, who is obviously physically a man, just hanging about.

Amma54, I understand from DD that the acronym TERF has been hijacked by those who are against simple self-IDing and now says Trying to Explain Reality to F***wits, and good for them, I say!

Surely its not just about toilets though?
How about communal changing rooms at swimming pools?
A self identified woman could happily strip off there.

I am a bit puzzled how anyone who identifies as a woman can square that with a beard - one of the most obvious sexual markers for a man ? I wouldn't expect them (though some love it) to break out into what is considered ultra-feminine - full fig of bouffant blonde curls, inch-thick make-up, Dolly Parton cleavage, tight satin skirt, 6-inch heels and a gallon of knock-out perfume - but a beard ?

Trisher, most men are not trying in some way to spy on women in loos. Because most men don't enter women's loos. Are you not even a tiny bit suspicious about those who do? Re my comments about the camera shoe, how successful or not they are is not really the point. The point is that they exist and that there is a market for them. Now why is that?

I've skimmed the posts above: nowhere near as political as MumsNet yet. It is a very complex, deep and wide issue will affect society generally. However, the government appear to think that it is an issue that will only affect trans people. We need to forget the 'old style' transsexual who had the painful ops after years of agonising etc. This new breed can be seriously unpleasant and dangerous. Anyone who disagrees is branded a 'TERF' (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist), a bigot or a transphobe. This just for disagreeing or wanting discussion. Their aim is to silence the opposition by any means necessary. The proposals to amend the existing legislation will do away with any need to put supporting papers before a panel or having lived in the role of the new gender (whatever that may mean) for 2 years or more. It will be self-ID, signing a piece of paper that you are henceforth the desired gender and you will have to be treated as a person of that sex. No surgery or hormones required. You are supposed to intend to live like that for the rest of your life, but who will check? Nobody.

I regret to say I see some naivety here about this issue. The very concepts of female and male are being done away with. How can we define ourselves if anyone is allowed to 'identity' as a woman? The trans rights activists say our biology is meaningless, it's how we 'feel' inside that matters (again, whatever that means). I don't 'feel' like a woman. I am a woman and I feel like me. Always have done. Did I have to put chemicals and objects in my body to prevent pregnancy because I identify as a woman? No. Because I am biologically a woman. We are in danger of getting laws passed based on feelings not facts. How can that work?

From a comment above 'Let's focus on matters that will change things like the 50/50 campaign'. 5050parliament.co.uk. This will be impossible as we won't know who the 50/50 are. We already have biological males who ID as women in women's positions. E.g. Lily Madigan is a women's officer in a Labour CLP. So one half could be all biological males while an unknown number of the other half could be men who 'identify' as women. And who will benefit? Not us, of that you can be sure.

You could try googling women with beards- really interesting and shows how you cannot judge completely by appearances.