Hadley Freeman on Self ID of gender in The Guardian

I am repeating my link from a previous post to the Scottish consultation document on this very subject, in case anyone missed it. I learnt a great deal from the notes in it, and I recommend it.
consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/ It has a lot of detail about the proposals, and about the different ways other countries have handled the issue. Worth reading (but too late to respond! It closed on March 1st)

Anyone know how the petition is going?

Just as an aside really, I had my first experience of self-identification just a couple of days ago. Or the first that I realised anyway.
I was at the airport and went to the Ladies. A young man ( sorry but was else can I say) jeans, sweat shirt, beard was leaning against the wash basins, mobile in hand, just watching people coming in and out of the cubicles. Most of us stopped in our tracks and then ignored him. One lady challenged him and he said "I identify as female."

I went to the loo and he was still there when I came out, washed my hands and went.

It made me very uneasy.

Which airport was this please?

Luton. Does it matter?

I identify as a leggy size zero supermodel.
Sadly that doesn’t make me one.

If it’s not a sexist reference, I might be tempted to say this “self identifying” is a load of bo**ocks. ?

Oh it is a sexist reference isn't it? I never thought of that. How about "It gets on my tit." Guess I can't use that any more.

(Slides off my tit, might be more accurate. Sigh)

Yes it does matter as I am involved in monitoring responses by organisations to self id and what should be safe spaces for women and girls.

It would be bad enough if he went in, used the toilet then left. Why was he just standing there watching everyone else?

MawBroon

Is that a rhetorical question Granny? I would see it as an expression of male power, intimidating women and enjoying their discomfiture. And that’s what self ID is all about

Really this is a load of bollocks. Most loos these days are cleaned by male and female operatives, presumably a man cleaning the loos doesn't feel threatening so why should someone who self identifies as a woman feel threatening? Lets just get rid of the urinals and have unisex ones asap.

Trisher, sadly it isn't a 'load of bollocks'. A man cleaning the loo has a job to do, I've never seen them hanging around. In, job done, out again. This whole ridiculous issue of 'identifying' as the opposite sex needs banging on the head and burying. Soon. How would it be if you go to the ladies and find 4 beardy blokes hanging around in there? How comfortable would you feel? Would it never enter your head that they may drag you into a cubicle and then what?

I don't suppose any of us have a problem with floor to ceiling walls and doors. But the ones with partitions are another matter. Do you know there are shoes with cameras in them? So one day you may be sitting on the loo, not minding in the least that a male-looking person went into the loo nexdoor and a shoe appears under the partition.

Happy with that?

Yes why not?

Really the paranoia of some is unbelievable. If the camera is to see anything it will need to be in exactly the right place, at the right angle, with the right amount of light. Most people have problems getting decent pictures with a proper camera, one in a shoe under a loo partition is unlikely to get anything. And you could always drop loo paper on it or stamp on it.

I think (I hope) I would have asked him/her if he/she was waiting for someone and said "Which cubicle is she in? I'll give her a shout to hurry up!"? Or perhaps "When did you apply to be registered as female and change your birth certificate?"

If they are genuine, they will know that they can't yet do that - but if they are not genuine, just "havbing a laff", it could bring it home to them that they don't just decide that today they are going to pretend to be female and go and hang around the ladies loos with a camera phone in their hand.

Or, if you're a smoker, light a small fire under it.

Stub out your cigarette on it!

I don’t think there’s anything to suggest that he was genuine in any shape of form. trisher it’s not paranoia - it’s an example at the lower end of what self id is all about. As for the cleaning, at the office blocks where I work, if there is a male cleaner in, they put up a notice and tell you where the other nearest toilets are

It may be paranoia if the loos are full of women going in and out, but in analmost deserted airport, with no-one else in there, it would be exactly the kind of place where you don't want to find a bearded man standing watching the door when you emerge.

Yes Elegran that’s just what I was thinking - coming off a late arriving plane. I’m going to email Luton and ask what they are doing to guarantee the safety of women and girls in their female toilets. But I don’t want him there anyway demonstrating his male power and privilege which is what it was all about.

Before this new development of self-identification as female, anyone who wished to "pass" as a woman would take the trouble to shave off that beard and put on a bit of lippy. That was an indication that they were serious about it, and were not just doing it for today and returning to their usual male persona tomorrow.

It is paranoia to think that most men are in some way trying to spy on women in loos. It is paranoia to think that most men are going in some way to assault or interfere with women in loos. If loos were unisex there would be both sexes going in and out so arguably any prospective weirdo would not have the opportunity to harras women because a man might come in next.

You could try googling women with beards- really interesting and shows how you cannot judge completely by appearances.

I've skimmed the posts above: nowhere near as political as MumsNet yet. It is a very complex, deep and wide issue will affect society generally. However, the government appear to think that it is an issue that will only affect trans people. We need to forget the 'old style' transsexual who had the painful ops after years of agonising etc. This new breed can be seriously unpleasant and dangerous. Anyone who disagrees is branded a 'TERF' (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist), a bigot or a transphobe. This just for disagreeing or wanting discussion. Their aim is to silence the opposition by any means necessary. The proposals to amend the existing legislation will do away with any need to put supporting papers before a panel or having lived in the role of the new gender (whatever that may mean) for 2 years or more. It will be self-ID, signing a piece of paper that you are henceforth the desired gender and you will have to be treated as a person of that sex. No surgery or hormones required. You are supposed to intend to live like that for the rest of your life, but who will check? Nobody.

I regret to say I see some naivety here about this issue. The very concepts of female and male are being done away with. How can we define ourselves if anyone is allowed to 'identity' as a woman? The trans rights activists say our biology is meaningless, it's how we 'feel' inside that matters (again, whatever that means). I don't 'feel' like a woman. I am a woman and I feel like me. Always have done. Did I have to put chemicals and objects in my body to prevent pregnancy because I identify as a woman? No. Because I am biologically a woman. We are in danger of getting laws passed based on feelings not facts. How can that work?

From a comment above 'Let's focus on matters that will change things like the 50/50 campaign'. 5050parliament.co.uk. This will be impossible as we won't know who the 50/50 are. We already have biological males who ID as women in women's positions. E.g. Lily Madigan is a women's officer in a Labour CLP. So one half could be all biological males while an unknown number of the other half could be men who 'identify' as women. And who will benefit? Not us, of that you can be sure.