Hadley Freeman on Self ID of gender in The Guardian

But they are not Bridgeit. They suffer all sorts of trauma. In an ideal world things would proceed as you say but they don't. Perhaps if the law is changed there will be more support.
Gerrispringer you said we are physically examined at many stages of life. Birth is one of them. The only time really for women then is as they are born. I assumed you were referring to giving birth. I think we all know there is sometimes confusion at birth. So what you seem to be saying is what happens to trans-gender women now, all women will need to have a physical examination to prove they are a woman.

The Nursery class bit .

Sorry I’m not sure what the meaning of your last sentence is Gerispringer , can you help me out ?

trisherI didn’t say someone has to give birth to be a woman- I said at birth ie when one is born it usual to identify male / female. Yes there are conditions such as intersex where sex is indeterminate, but again that is biological. There are cases where people identify as a child - because of early trauma they “feel” they are a 5 year old. Do we say biology doesn’t matter where age is concerned? No we would give such a person psychological help, we wouldn’t allow them into a nursery class.

There always has & always will be babies born with indertiminat gender. Those persons will be supported in their decision making throughout life with expert medical & emotional support ,ultimately it will be down to each individual how they wish to proceed. Those of us who are not affected by or in that situation really should just shut up.

It amazes me that some people don't realise that there are some people who have difficulties for one reason or another with their sexual identity. But what really shocks me is that anyone would force someone to remain in a gender they are uncomfortabe with. It results in much mental anguish and sometimes in suicide.
I was thinking that much of this argument is closely allied to the complaints made once about legalising homosexual sex. Men will be assaulted in showers, society will be devastated, moral standards will fall. In fact what has happened is that homosexuals do all the things most people do, find a partner, get married (or not) build a family. And things go on much as normal- as they will when there are transgender people who self identify.

What about people born with inderterminate genitals, Primrose? Is their gender identifiable by their chromosomes?

What do you mean by biological women
Someone with xx chromosomes. It's not that difficult.
A biological man has xy chromosomes.

It's nothing to do with proving you have ovaries! We're all able to recognise a human being, despite humans coming with many variations. We all know what it means when a man says he self-identifies as a woman. If he was a woman, there would be no need to self-identify, would there? Everyone would identify him as a woman anyway because he was a woman. But he's not, he's a man.

So if you don't give birth you can't be classified as a woman. Well that's going to upset a lot of women!

trisher Well we are physically examined at many stages of life. Birth is one of them.

Probably in the future,there will be a whole new check sheet to fill in.ie Born Female,
indetified as male in2045
Transitioned as Bi in 2047
Reversed back to original identity in2049
Babies will develop in test tubes as the norm ,because woman won’t want to have 9mth pregnancies. etc etc and so life goes on ....

So Gerrispringer will we all have to have physical examinations in order to prove we have the required equipment?

I only know one female to male transgender person, and they weren't the slightest bit bothered about people using the correct pronouns.
It was confusing, one minute a lesbian, some time wanting to be a male, and now finally - a bloke!

. I believe Mr & Mrs Average are tolerant with a sense of humour, but if we are now having to be terrified of saying the wrong thing, by not using the correct terminology we are in danger of becoming more segregated for fear of causing offence & finding ourselves hauled before a court for not using /adapting politically correct language & acceptance . Attitudes ,Change & Acceptance usually naturally evolves over time. Violence ,hatred, & any isums are not acceptable, but I do believe joe public sometimes needs a little time & space to adapt to some changes without fear of being labelled, accused or worse still prosecuted.

I don't really understand your last point, Trisher.

trisher by biological women I mean people with xx chromosomes, female genitalia, who have been brought up as female.

What do you mean by biological women Gerispringer -women with ovaries? women with uteruses? If a woman has neither can she still be a woman? Or is she not physically well enough endowed to be called such. What about women who want to be men?
As for other cultures SueDonim we already only recognise what fits with our society I assume you don't want us all to have to cover our heads? or to embrace cultures which are homophobic.

I just signed the petition and hope that cambridge analitica doesn’t get hold of it.
BTW our fairly local swimming pool has cubicles by the pool and we all use the same showers. Seems to work.

I don’t see why it is transphobic to talk about the rights of biological women, it seems that the wishes of a tiny number of transgender people is seen as more important than the rights of biological women. And why can’t we say “biological women” either?

I can't see where I mention non-women?

Anyone can, of course, stand up for the rights of women but I don't believe a male-bodied woman can truly understand all women's issues unless they have some experience of them. They will have their own experiences but not those of growing up female etc. This is why some women prefer to see a woman doctor for intimate problems.

There are also cultural issues. One of my DIL's is not British or Christian. Her culture has rules about the mixing of the sexes and other social mores. Are we to disregard such other cultures when it comes to this matter?

How? Which rights will be affected. The right to all women loos? The right to all women swimming sessions? These are not things that dramatically change lives nor do they necessarily improve the lot of women. If what you describe as a non-woman by which I assume you mean a trans-gender woman stands and is appointed why should she not stand up for the rights of all women? As for sport there are women who would like to take part in men's sports hopefully the participation of trans-gender women will lead to a reassessment of how sport is regulated. By all means protect rights but let's not see threats where there are none or very few.

Just because an issue may not change our own personal lives doesn't mean we shouldn't have views on that issue. I have plenty of views on topics that don't affect me personally.

The argument about SI transgender women, to me, centres around protecting the rights women have gained, through hard-fought battles. Being relegated to non-men; male-bodied women occupying positions reserved for women; women's sport. To me, it doesn't matter if only one women is currently affected by this. It's the thin edge of the wedge.

SueDonim I have no desire to "silence women" indeed I think they should have more voice in the running of the world and more representation in government. What I fail to see is what assistance the argument about trans-gender women will do to help that.But if you can explain it to me I am quite willing to listen. What I see is a campaign being used as a divisive tool to draw attention away from the very real issues confronting ordinary women today. Do you really think a small percentage of trans-gender people threatens the future for women? The lack of representation in Parliament is much more life changing.
She is welcome to speak about it but to my mind it is reminiscent of the things that used to be printed in women's magazines- like recipes and knitting patterns- things to keep women busy whilst men get on with the real business of running things. As I said it is unlikely that many of our lives will be changed by self identifying trans gender people.

Hello, NoSquirrels, it's nice to have a visitor from MN!

That's a very good article, and I agree with Elegran's post, whereas Trisher's post, I feel, is trying to do the very thing Hadley Freeman is writing about - silencing women and closing down debate.

People are perfectly able to talk and campaign about more than one issue at a time. If this is an issue which bothers someone, why shouldn't they speak of it?

I do think this has become such an intellectualised debate and so many factors have been brought into it that blur the issue that it is virtually impossible to look objectively at things. So there is the issue of changing facilities and loos, where it is feared self identifying transgender men will assault women. Firstly there always have been and always will be men who assault women, and if we were to live our lives in absolute protecton we would still operate purdah, secondly there are some women (few I know) who assault other women. How are we to be protected from them?
I am firstly a human being and although I may have more experiences in common with women, there are men I have things in common with as well. I have no doubt there will be transgender women I share experiences with and transgender women I have nothng in common with.
I don't suppose the majority of men will want to self-identify as women and who knows the ones that do may add to our acheiving true equality. I do think people who publish articles such as Hadley Freemen would be better off campaigning for proper representation in Parliament for women, or for better childcare, or for better pay and protection for women on zero hours contracts. The argument over what is a woman is something that really won't impact on most of our lives. We may find self-identifying men in the changing room and loos who still have penises, but honestly will a brief glimpse of something so insignificnt really matter in the fight for female equality?Let's focus on matters that will change things like the 50/50 campaign 5050parliament.co.uk