Winnie Mandela

So Mandela was oblivious whilst in prison to what was happening in the country.

Anyone who wears gold jewellery including wedding bands bought in the sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties have blood on their hands, unless they were unaware of the fight against apartheid.

Right or wrong, I wish I had a fraction of her courage. We can all judge from the safety of our situation but she lived every moment of it.

Rest in Peace Winnie.

Smileless2012
Oh how I agree.
You're absolutely spot on.

Winnie Mandela was a bad un.
When Nelson M found out her true colours he divorced her.
The country is well rid of her.

Lady Macbeth was haunted by her past. I can't quote her exactly but it was along the lines of 'not all the seas of this land or all the perfumes in Arabia can wash this blood from my hands

That was the blood of King Duncan whom she had murdered.
I believe Winnie Mandela also had much blood on her hands and would venture to suggest that was one reason Nelson Mandela distanced himself from her and her political history and guilty “henchmen” when he was released from prison, becoming a respected political leader.

No I meant without historical context we can’t give an informed opinion.

We can all give an opinion. That is easy.

Lady Macbeth was haunted by her past. I can't quote her exactly but it was along the lines of 'not all the seas of this land or all the perfumes in Arabia can wash this blood from my hands'.

I agree whitewave without personal experience we are not in a position to give an informed opinion, but we are entitled to have one and express it whether that be admiration for Winnie Mandela or not.

Why does Winnie Mandela make me think of Lady Macbeth?

Historical context must be given priority when you give your thought to events. Without this context it is meaningless.

SA has long suffered from violence, from the first ever concentration camps where thousands of women and children died at the hands of the British, to the annexation of the land owned by the indigenous folk, to the suppression through violence and poverty of these folk to the present day, where poverty together with all the type of violence associated with poverty still exists.

You need to walk a mile in someone’s shoes before you give anything remotely like an informed opinion.

"High horse" "blood on our hands" etc. I've seen no one here supporting either apartheid or the brutality of the SA white government and its police forces.
I expect many of us campaigned against apartheid, refused to buy SA goods and demonstrated, contacted MP's, supported the struggle and so on. Please don't lump us with the Thatcher regime.
Yes, it's important to look at Winnie Mandela's actions in the context of the time. That doesn't mean she also doesn't have blood on her hands.

'Dispite the beating, harassment and subsequent imprisonment, she had remained resolute in her quest to free the nation from the shackles of apartheid .

She refused to be bowed by the imprisoment of her husband , the perpetual harassment of her family by security forces , detentions, bannings and banishment .

Her courageous defiance was deeply inspirational to me , and to generations of activists.

Desmond Tutu

The fight against apartheid was a war - not just an ideological political struggle but a war against one of the greatest evil regimes in modern times. Tell me of a war in which those people on the right side of history did not commit acts that were wrong - the Spanish Civil War, World War 11 including the French Resistance - there is not one of us not one of us who can even begin to imagine what her early life as a wife and mother were like, the years of exile and the pain and suffering and humiliation she underwent. I’m not condoning some of what she did that was wrong but we in the UK have blood on our hands so far as SA is concerned - we should hang our heads in shame at how we supported and condoned that evil regime and when we’ve atoned for that, maybe, just maybe we might be in a position to start to be a little critical of WM. I ask again, what were her critics on here doing to combat apartheid? If the answer is nothing, then you have no right at all to sit in judgement on her.

Yes Grannyknot, May her troubled soul rest in peace

From memory, "The Arch" as Desmond Tutu is fondly known as in S.A. had to beseech Winnie Mandela to make full use of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - as reported in The Independent today:

"Anguished pleading from TRC chairman Archbishop Desmond Tutu could only persuade her to go as far as saying, grudgingly, that “things went horribly wrong”.

In its final report, the TRC ruled that Ms Madikizela-Mandela was "politically and morally accountable for the gross violations of human rights committed by the Mandela United Football Club".

May her troubled soul R.I.P.

He was accused of betraying his people but was not given a trial and the brutality of his death was a far harsher judgement than any that she is receiving on this thread.

You hope history will be kind; I hope history will be honest.

The death of the boy was wrong, that age at that time was not that of a fifteen year old in this country. He betrayed his people, how many children died during all those years.

I am not condoning his killing but after many years deeply involved with the fight against apartheid, knowing people who suffered. I have a friend who parents were imprisoned for distributing leaflets defending .Mandela, the family were forced to leave the country, they are white, if black they would have been shot. I was proud to have met Donald Woods who was a friend of Steve Biko, his books were turned into the film Cry Freedom.

I will defend Winnie Mandela, easy to judge her for her hatred of those who caused her much suffering . She was the first black S.A. To become a social worker , she was gentle until her husband was imprisoned and she took up his fight . She deserves the state funeral she is being honoured with. And yes I do hope history will be kind to her, not judge her as harshly as she is being judged here.

I don't know Bluebell but in order to have any hope in finding it, we have to be prepared to acknowledge all aspects of someone's life and not ignore the parts we find unpalatable.

Do we ever know the truth though ?

No one's saying that apartheid was anything other than evil maryeliza but why accuse those who can recognize the bad that someone has done of being on their high horse?

There are many who do and will revere this woman, but see her for what she was and what she did. She had blood on her hands; the blood of a 14 year old boy for whose kidnapping she was indicted and was given a 6 year prison sentence later reduced to a fine.

ab has said everything I want to but so much better - I’d like to know what all of you on your high horses did to fight the utter utter utter evil of apartheid - the average SA policeman carried out more evil in one day in his life that she did in all her days / I’m with Tutu on this

What does that have to do with her using her hands, fists and a whip against a 14 year old boy? Does that excuse her then Annie?

In your OP you said that you hoped history would be kind to her. I posted that I hoped history would give a true and honest account of her life, so let's do that.

Yes, she suffered but others suffered at her hands and on her orders.

She was wife of a prisoner for 27 years, wife of a president for less than 4.

There is nothing noble in speaking out against acts of terror and brutality Annie it's about being human, about being decent.

She had power because she was the wife of the President. She clearly had sufficient power and influence to order the beating and execution of others.

"Are all those paying tribute Today liars?" Are all those who witnessed and took part in the atrocities she ordered and in some cases took part in liars?

What power? It is so easy to be noble from thousands of miles away. Are all those paying tribute Today liars? Someone I care for was beaten to death because he covered the body of a little girl who police were urinating on. What did she witness , what did she endure

I'm sorry Annie but how many of us could have carried out her acts of evil?

The beating to death of a 14 year old boy and the advocating of necklacing. Committing an act of violence in self defense is one thing, orchestrating and taking part in acts of violence for a cause, regardless of how 'good' a cause that may be, is another entirely.

Apartheid was terrible but is it right when an evil regime is overthrown, to use acts of violence and brutality to secure one's position of newly acquired power?

She didn't just acquire power, she also acquired great wealth at the expense no doubt of her 'children'; those of her people living in abject poverty.